12-08-2001 03:49									#31
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Thanx Jonny for giving me a date of the PM issue its in, now I can goto a newstand and get this article and read it for myself.

Last edited by Lord Magnus on 12-08-2001 at 09:38

	12-08-2001 03:57									#32
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Emp bombs are a reality, I read in Newscientist how using a cone shaped explosive charge can somehow be used( i forget how) to produce a EMP (pulse) in a cone shaped field of somesort.. they thought this could be used on fighter style aircraft I think although air EMPS could be dangerous fired from the normal jetplane heights.

Someone could at least use EMP troops etc in a civ 3 scenario
would be a nice tactic for small nation civs defending v large techno electronic ones (EMP Mars liberatoion Guerrilas set off a mini EMcannon towards the Saturn alliances Fusion Powerplant disabling it and causing a massive power meltdown destroying the Fusion Core - hence wiping out the Saturns capital Apollo Delta power and the spacefactories suppyling war ships)
Purely Light using electronics and other Electromagnetic types of power like electricity are some ways of defending from enemies using EM shock-attacks.

AdmiralPeter

	12-08-2001 04:02									#33
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quote: Originally posted by Wille This can only lead to one thing, the return of steampower!!

yea too bad (for you) that the EMP has no effect on any gasoline engine without electronics. No Ironhorse for you, you luddie.
Of course I metioned that in the future with the development of non-electronic computers will make EMP weapons useless. But I've been appearently talking into a cyberspace vacuum as no one has commented on this (maybe it's because I'm right).

	12-08-2001 04:11									#34
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quote: Originally posted by Admiral PJ Purely Light using electronics

Thank you for commenting on the non-electronic techs, I can now shut up. Also aside from those techs a cheap and effective EMP shielding may be developed in the near future (ie: carbon nanotubes)

quote: Originally posted by Admiral PJ and other Electromagnetic types of power like electricity are some ways of defending from enemies using EM shock-attacks.

that doesn't sound right.

	12-08-2001 05:38									#35
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Purely Light using electronics

I think its called photonics.

	12-08-2001 08:40									#36
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quote: Purely Light using electronics I think it's called Photonics

Admiral PJ didn't use the correct terminology but he had an idea of what he was talking about.

	12-08-2001 08:42									#37
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Despite advances in photonics and totally optical computers, it will probably need electricity in some part of it's working, to flip those tiny photonic mirror switches and power the lasers. Basically to do anything it takes energy, and for cokputers, that means a steady, stable stream of electricity.

Sure, you could have a great big pipe computer set out on a field that runs on water pressure and thousands or millions of human operators, but it would be so big, slow, and cumbersome. Not the kind of stuff you fit inside the guidance center of a missilegoing out for the counter-offensive.

Now, maybe something could work through EMP's, but the source I read said that even the sturdiest electrical stuff would all fail after repeated attacks. Maybe somebody can correct me on this, but I saw basically how these things are supposed to work, and routing all those light signals to perform computation requires switches, and power.

	12-08-2001 09:08									#38
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quote: Originally posted by Laszlo Despite advances in photonics and totally optical computers, it will probably need electricity in some part of it's working, to flip those tiny photonic mirror switches and power the lasers. Basically to do anything it takes energy, and for cokputers, that means a steady, stable stream of electricity. ... Maybe somebody can correct me on this, but I saw basically how these things are supposed to work, and routing all those light signals to perform computation requires switches, and power.

If the mirrors had to be "flipped" than optical computers would be much slower than electronics, much faster to change the light's frequency to preform the logic switching. And yes lasers are powered by electricity and upon further examination no computer can escape electronics completely as it'll probally have to be powered by electricity, but it's easier to harden and shield power systems than the whole computer against EMP.

	12-08-2001 09:35									#39
	Thoughts about EMP Enter the AD-FREE zone

Pulled from: The Electromagnetic Pulse

...When a semi-conductive device absorbs the EMP energy, it displaces the resulting heat that is produced relatively slowly when compared to the time scale of the EMP. Because the heat is not dissipated quickly, the semiconductor can quickly heat up to temperatures near the melting point of the material. Soon the device will short and fail. This type of failure is call thermal second-breakdown failure...

Maybe a larger heat sink can help with this and if we had room-temp superconductors this wouldn't happen?

...Some other notable collectors of EMP include railroad tracks, large antennas, pipes, cables, wires in buildings, and metal fencing...

I wonder if an array of large antennas would suck the EMP up before it can burn out electronics?

...Also, the United States must further explore EMP effects to better prepare for them. This includes informing the United States public about the effects of EMP simulators. If current public opinion continues(31) and all the EMP simulators close, further EMP testing cannot be done. The public must understand that the EMP simulators are not harmful, and that the destruction of the American infrastructure would be devastating. This must be avoided at all costs, but without testing, America is vulnerable to this destruction. This is why the United States must be prepared for the effects of the EMP...

The public makes me sick If we don't understand EMP than how can we defend against it? It's sad when we care more about if something is offensive to someone than protecting electronics.

	12-08-2001 19:40									#40
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quote: Originally posted by Lord Magnus If the mirrors had to be "flipped" than optical computers would be much slower than electronics, much faster to change the light's frequency to preform the logic switching.

I don't know much about the way photonics is supposed to work but I think it is based on varying the density/refractive indices of transmission materials to redirect photons in the "circuitry" not based on mirror switches. Photons used as tweasers and rachets for this purpose would come into their own in terms of size and energy usage.

I think this is way off-topic now, I can't see its relation to civ anymore.

	13-08-2001 01:10									#41
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quote: Originally posted by Big Crunch I don't know much about the way photonics is supposed to work but I think it is based on varying the density/refractive indices of transmission materials to redirect photons in the "circuitry" not based on mirror switches. Photons used as tweasers and rachets for this purpose would come into their own in terms of size and energy usage.

Yea I guess a mirror will reflect the same way indepent of frequency. But the way you metioned isn't mechanical or it doesn't need electricity to operate. But of course no one fully understands optical computers as they haven't been fully developed yet.

quote: Originally posted by Big Crunch I think this is way off-topic now, I can't see its relation to civ anymore.

Yea it has gone off-topic and I doubt that Firaxis will implement it into Civ3. Maybe it's time to let this thread die.

	13-08-2001 08:24									#42
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quote: Where the hell is this coming from? When did I advocate any sort of Luddism? I'm merely pointing out that EMP devices were a part of the nuclear arsenal of the two nuclear superpowers, and that an EMP detonation would cause a large amount of damage to the electronic infrastructure of any developed nation. I'm not even advocating their inclusion in Civ3, so learn to read before you criticise.

I hate USB. Quoting is so much easier with simple HTML.

quote: With a sufficiently strong EMP, your Faraday cage can overload; it won't act like a perfect conductor, and thus won't protect perfectly. You can shield, but it's expensive, and not guaranteed to work if your enemy just uses a bigger bomb. Different situation. Not every soldier can carry a bazooka, but it only takes a few detonations to cover a continent.

Maybe you're just not that good at putting ideas into words, but it seems to me like you're saying that there is no defense against EMPs because one can simply build a bigger bomb.

The part about Civ3 wasn't directed towards you. Really, discussing EM effects here is beyond pointless. Most posters have severe sci-fi or alarmist-induced misconceptions about the effects of an EMP detonation.

	13-08-2001 10:02									#43
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quote: Originally posted by E. Goldstein Really, discussing EM effects here is beyond pointless. Most posters have severe sci-fi or alarmist-induced misconceptions about the effects of an EMP detonation.

Labeling the people here isn't going to kill this thread any faster.