11-08-2001 10:15									#31
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Alexander- Good additions to the discussion.

It's too bad that they didn't make Catherine a bit younger and cuter... She really looks ugly unfortunately.

So is Bluto Persian or Roman? I haven't seen enough Ceasar pics from that kind of screen to compare. He's not that German guy in another age is he? (I think they were experimenting with his name too BTW)

	11-08-2001 10:24									#32
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quote: Originally posted by Alexander01 Besides, CTP used Bismarck, and using it in CivIII would be copying. (Like CTP did to CivII), and Firaxis wouldn't sink to...sigh...Activision's level.

Just to clarify, when you say copying, you really just mean that Activision and Microprose had both picked the same leaders for a country because they both decided that leader was important to that nation. It is just that Microprose did it first, right?

	11-08-2001 20:34									#33
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Bluto is ROMAN. It's just Caesar during the Renaissance with another name. None of us were expecting portraits to change with time, but it does make only one leader per civ easier to swallow.

The German guy has a mustache and maybe a beard. He also appears to be in his 40s, 50s or 60s (the pic is rather small). This means that that will be the case throughout all the historical periods. But I believe the German pic we have to be their leader in the Renaissance. Look at his hat. I'll try to post an image of Holy Roman Emperor Charles V (resigned 1556, I believe). They are quite similar.

And Activision REALLY DID copy. The Zulu's female leader was Shakala, for Pete's sake. Microprose made that up! And Activision was foolish enough to rip it off! But who really likes CTP anyway!

	11-08-2001 21:08									#34
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Mystery Renaissance German / Emperor Charles V

Attachment: charles v.jpg
This has been downloaded 131 time(s).

	11-08-2001 21:10									#35
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I would just like to take this opportunity to gloat. If you check my thread on the included civs and then check the date last edited, I had predicted all 16 civs with total accuracy

*cues round of applause*

	11-08-2001 21:22									#36
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Hey, I'm impressed with your detective work Alexander01.

I would have expected them to go for someone a little more heard of though...I am not up on my German leaders though so I would have thought someone like Frederick or Bismarck would be a better choice...

	11-08-2001 21:29									#37
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quote: Originally posted by Provost Harrison I would just like to take this opportunity to gloat. If you check my thread on the included civs and then check the date last edited, I had predicted all 16 civs with total accuracy *cues round of applause*

As did I, but it wasn't really that hard. We had confirmed 100% twelve of them, the Japanese were at 95%, which left us with three unknowns, and of the remaining four which had a remote possibility of being in (Aztecs, Babylonians, Persians and Spanish), the Spanish had the least going for them (just one city name which was also an Iroquois city). The folks over at the CivFanatics Civ III Info Center had it all wrong -- they put the Mongols AND the Japanese in, as well as some other mistakes.

	11-08-2001 21:58									#38
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Mao Zedong and Jeanne d'Arc are the only two leaders I have a problem with. Mao was one of the Top Ten Tyrants of the Twentieth Century and thus should not be included. Jeanne d'Arc was never the ruler of France and would be better placed as a hero unit (how many female hero units can you think of?).

	12-08-2001 02:50									#39
	Leader of Germany Enter the AD-FREE zone

I also feel that either Frederick or Bismarck will lead the Germans.
I consider Frederick more likely because he was the leader in CivII, and since Bismarck lead in CTP they may try to avoid such a choice. However there is the "Bismarck von Otto" caption joke to worry about...

I wasn't suggesting Charles V was the leader, only that since we know the leaders change clothes with time periods, that our german leader was in the renaissance because he was dressed like Charles V.

	12-08-2001 09:09									#40
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i agree with jellydonut. Joan de Arc was never a ruler and she would make a good leader unit

	12-08-2001 10:40									#41
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quote: Originally posted by JellyDonut Mao was one of the Top Ten Tyrants of the Twentieth Century and thus should not be included.

According to who? The U.S.?

The winners get to write history, remember that.

	12-08-2001 11:15									#42
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Thanks a lot Alexander, especially for clarifying on the Bluto matter.
Here is what we have thus far
The Americans- Abe Lincoln 100%(http://apolyton.net/civ3/images/screenshots/abe-s.jpg)
The Aztecs Montezuma 100% (http://www.civ3.com/previewwin.cfm?...=800&height=600)
The Babylonians Hammurabi 100% (civ of week section at civ3.com)
The Chinese Mao 100%(http://www.civ3.com/images/headfeatures.gif)
The Egyptians Cleopatra 85%(http://www.civ3.com/previewwin.cfm?...=800&height=600) Note, this leader is only 85% because the picture looks NOTHING like Cleopatra, or at least the image the masses have of her. Perhaps a designer renamed a Ramsses or someone of the like?
The English Elizabeth I 100% (http://www.civ3.com/previewwin.cfm?...=800&height=600, http://apolyton.net/civ3/images/screenshots/liz-s.jpg)
The French Joan of Arc 100% (http://www.civ3.com/images/headfeatures.gif)
The Germans illegible...Hidenburg? Bismarck? Unknown
(http://www.civ3.com/images/headfeatures.gif)
The Greeks Alexander the Great 100% (Old magazine screenshots)
The Indians Ghandi 100% (Old magazine screenshots)
The Iroquois Hiawatha 100%(http://apolyton.net/civ3/images/scr.../Hi_angry-s.jpg)
The Japanese unknown, Tokugawa? (http://apolyton.net/forums/attachme...=&postid=392605)
The Persians Unknown
The Romans Julius Caesar 100% (old magazine screenshots)
The Russians Catherine the Great 100%(http://www.civ3.com/images/headfeat...=&postid=404268[/url])
The Zulus unknown
So far, we are really only down to the Zulus, Germans, and Persians now.

	13-08-2001 18:43									#43
	Re: Leaders of the 16 civs in Civ 3, just the facts sir Support Apolyton, buy GURPS/ Alpha Centauri

quote: Originally posted by monkspider The Germans illegible...Hidenburg maybe? (http://www.civ3.com/images/headfeatures.gif)

I'm presuming you're talking about Paul von Hindenburg?

his name was actually Paul von Beneckendorf und Hindenburg, but that doesn'treally matter now... why don't they give us Otto Fürst von Bismarck, like in CTP? Hindenburg was only President for a few years, and he wass very old then and didn't really graps his responsibility... quite intriguing, I'd really like to know who's going to be the German leader

	13-08-2001 19:34									#44
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Well some can be assumed.... I mean for the Americans who are they going to use... Bush

And Joan of Arc for the French isn't the best choice..... I mean Charlemagne would have been pretty good, but I guess they're looking for the best known leader....

	14-08-2001 05:12									#45
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The problem there is that Charlemagne was GERMAN-speaking! His empire included both France and Germany. He was a Frankish king/emperor. It wasn't until his grandsons divided the kingdom that German and French became more distinct. So Charlemagne could just as easily rule Germany as France!

	14-08-2001 07:25									#46
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quote: Originally posted by tniem Just to clarify, when you say copying, you really just mean that Activision and Microprose had both picked the same leaders for a country because they both decided that leader was important to that nation. It is just that Microprose did it first, right?

I believe he was refering to how activision copied the whole of the game.

And I suppose that includes leader names.

	15-08-2001 04:12									#47
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Here is a larger, more defined picture of Catherine in her ancient garb. See, everyone? No beard!

Attachment: catherine_ancient.jpg
This has been downloaded 41 time(s).

	15-08-2001 09:57									#48
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quote: Originally posted by tniem According to who? The U.S.? The winners get to write history, remember that.

I know of no instance in which the US *won* over Maoist China. Mao was a butcherer (looking at the numbers of people he killed), and the other leaders in the game aren't as bad, death toll-wise. And I am not implying that the US is not a butchering nation (the "death penalty"), but Lincoln was not as bad as Mao and Firaxis wisely chose a leader from the US's pre-imperialist period.

	15-08-2001 11:12									#49
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quote: Originally posted by JellyDonut I know of no instance in which the US *won* over Maoist China. Mao was a butcherer (looking at the numbers of people he killed), and the other leaders in the game aren't as bad, death toll-wise. And I am not implying that the US is not a butchering nation (the "death penalty"), but Lincoln was not as bad as Mao and Firaxis wisely chose a leader from the US's pre-imperialist period.

I bet there are folks in the U.S. south who would compare Lincoln with Mao.

I think Mao did as much good as he did bad. He united China, ended a bloody civil war and 100 years of unstable government, and got rid of the foreign invaders.

While we can debate his merits, I would acknowledge that people like JellyDonut seem to really hate Mao. Firaxis would be wise to pick a less controversial leader, such as an emperor from the Tang dynasty (T'ang T'ai-tsung or Hsuan-tsung)

This is what Britannica has to say about the Tang dynasty:
Tang (618–907), Chinese dynasty that succeeded the short-lived Sui dynasty and developed a successful form of government and administration on the Sui model and stimulated a cultural and artistic flowering that amounted to a golden age.

	15-08-2001 12:05									#50
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quote: Originally posted by Osweld I believe he was refering to how activision copied the whole of the game. And I suppose that includes leader names.

Because they were making the continuation of the civ series just like Firaxis is. They took the basic elements of a TBS game and took the basic elements of a civ game through the ages.

They took the game because that is what the court settlement allowed - them to make one game under the name Civilization: Call to Power and then all the rest under Call to Power only. So yes they copied the game but that is what they set out to do.

And in reverse, Firaxis should have incorporated some ideas from their design. The biggest being the Public Works concept (still highly debated) and possibly the happiness of cities system that was used in CtP.