11-08-2001 04:13									#61
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quote: Germans really shouldn't have a Civ. They tried and failed to be dominant for 3 decades. What a joke!

Martin Luther, Gutenburg, Bach, Mozart, etc etc.
Yeah, Germans didn't do anything.

	11-08-2001 04:47									#62
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Although I like the way Firaxis implemented special abilities, and approve of the option to switch 'em off, the lack of randomization is a terrible oversight. Granted, it hasn't been specifically stated that you can't randomize (Dan wasn't sure), and we can change them manually, but it really would benefit this feature to allow automatic mix-em-ups. If the folks at Firaxis could confirm or deny the absence (or presence) of this feature, well, shucks, I'd like to know.

Everything else looks rather splendid. Good job folks. Very well done.

	11-08-2001 09:16									#63
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"The Spanish discovered main parts of the New World, giving names to a lot of the regions still there today (ever wondered where "America" originates? . They dominated most of the age of sail."

IIRC the name America is derived from Amerigo Vespucci, who was Italian.

	11-08-2001 09:44									#64
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Colon-
Thank God for educated people like you! Amerigo Vepucci was definitely an ITALIAN mapmaker.

Mad Viking-
I am assuming that you're not a citizen of the US? I think it one of the most godless societies on earth. While there is definitely a visible "bible thumping" population, it's an increasingly secular nation. Just look at the debate currently raging about school prayer or stem-cell research. The US is a country divided, not all protestant work ethic any more. The industrious thing is fairly true though. People still work hard in the US. Also I think that they are quite expansionist. Heard of "Manifest Destiny"?

The French are NOT industrious.
Does anyone think that the Russians are all that scientific? I didn't think that they were, but I am no expert in Soviet history. I thought communism retarded free speech as well as freedom of thought, which I would think would stifle creative and scientific elements in society.

	11-08-2001 14:02									#65
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quote: Originally posted by lord of the mark Re limited time frame - maybe these things would have been more appropriate to a limited time frame game (like EU) or to a civ scenario, rather than a 6000 year game. LOTM

Good to see there is someone here that agrees with me!

	11-08-2001 18:32									#66
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quote: Originally posted by The Mad Viking The Americans should also be religious. In God We Trust, the American State is really a Christian one. Sunday Morning TV, the Bible Belt- I know there will be many posters who hate this idea, but it is representative of the American Civ.

You are joking, right? If anything US was a first country to ever succesfully introduce the separation of state and church.
A number of quasi-religious symbols every now and then does not change anything.

If you are seeking for a modern example of religious country, go to Iran or Afghanistan - they are surely religious.
A handful of some "evilution" freaks who pop up from time to time does not change a lot. US is the finest example of secular country.

BTW, I am surprised that no-one of Americans here commented on it.

	11-08-2001 19:02									#67
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quote: Conquered city-populations belong to another culture is comparibly even harder to subdue and pacify.

Ralf, I don´t know if this has been confirmed, but I like the idea. And it could be easily implemented even in the late stage of game development.

	11-08-2001 20:32									#68
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quote: Originally posted by Colon IIRC the name America is derived from Amerigo Vespucci, who was Italian.

Right, but he sailed for the spanish, just as Columbus. Magellan was portuguese. It shows how Spain attracted important men.
Where would the Americans be without the import of great men?

	11-08-2001 20:40									#69
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quote: Originally posted by uncle_funk The French were conquered most of their time. Odd.

Because they were crushed in WW2?

France didn't lose too many wars. I mean, Napoleon in the end did, but only after conquering most of europe.

Louis XIV (with some problems) won the spanish succession wars, us austrians were defeated mostly by the french in the italian wars.

don't forget the scientific/intellectual importance of french and that they won the soccer WC and the spanish never

Though I lament the exclusion of the spanish, replacing the french by the spanish can't be it.

and why does everyone pick on the french army. It was the italians who lost every war victoriously by having the right allies. (they almost turned WW2 into a victory for them

	11-08-2001 21:17									#70
	Not that this matters one damn in this discussion but... Support Apolyton, buy Alpha Centauri

Wernazuma, only Vespucci's first voyage was under Spanish banner, all his other (known) voyages were Portuguese.

Strange they chose his surname, rather than Vespucci, to name the continents after...

	11-08-2001 21:42									#71
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I know what you mean, heh....
imagine Vespuccia instead of America.

	11-08-2001 22:57									#72
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quote: Originally posted by Martinus BTW, I am surprised that no-one of Americans here commented on it.

Why should we. Most of you Non-American have us figure out right? How many of you have ever been to the U.S.? Do we have some problem in big cities, yes. Go to a small town and you will see a big difference. Most American will try to do the right most of the time, however we have the bad element just like all of you have. There have been several poll taken on Religion and each time the poll have showen more than 60% of American belived in Religion. The one real bad thing in my personel view is Atheism and the ACLU (American Civil Liberty Union). They sue every time someone wants to have a Religious event at almost anything.

Amendment 1 of The US Constitution reads "Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of Religion, or prohibiting the free exercise thereof; or abridging the freedom of speech, or of the press; or the right of the people peaceably to assemble, and to petition the government for a redress of grievances".

The way I read this is that Congress can not tell me what Religious to belong to, however if a city or court house wants to have a Religious statue or the Ten Commandments hanging on their wall that is OK. The Amendment does not say no religion anywhere, only Congress can not tell us what religion to be.

Hell under the first amendment we even allow Nazi, Skin Heads, KKK, Communist to go around and shoot their mouth off and as long they don't break any laws and get away with it. How many countries in the world would allow that to happen? Look at India, two young kids were killed for being in love by their own family, and some of you do not like America.
If you want to bash major Corporation both American and other, I will help you, but leave the average American along.

Now for the big one. Amendment 2 "A well-regulated militia, being necessary to the security of a free state, the right of the people to keep and bear arms shall not be infringed".

How many of you understand that one? We have a great many Cities and States that don't understand it yet. Guns are here to stay, and the only way you will claim my guns is in my dead cold hands.

	12-08-2001 04:10									#73
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quote: Originally posted by joseph1944 The one real bad thing in my personel view is Atheism and the ACLU (American Civil Liberty Union).

Most atheists are ready to live and let live - don't push your religion down their throats, and they won't push their lack of belief on you. It's always a vocal minority who are the pains-in-the-ass, just as it's a minority of believers who loudly condemn the atheists (and others.)

It's always the few that make things difficult for the many who are just trying to get by, with or without God's grace.

	12-08-2001 04:49									#74
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quote: Originally posted by joseph1944 The one real bad thing in my personel view is Atheism

As an atheist, I resent this. My values are in no way less than yours. In fact, from the content of your post, I do not like your values at all.

quote: Hell under the first amendment we even allow Nazi, Skin Heads, KKK, Communist

I fail to see what #2 and #4 are doing in this rant.

quote: to go around and shoot their mouth off and as long they don't break any laws and get away with it. How many countries in the world would allow that to happen?

All democratic countries in the case of #2 and #4, of course, unfortunately also in the case of #1, but happily only your country has a #3.

quote: Now for the big one. Amendment 2 "A well-regulated militia, being necessary to the security of a free state, the right of the people to keep and bear arms shall not be infringed".

This is the main reason why I shall never live in your country.

	12-08-2001 05:01									#75
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quote: Originally posted by joseph1944 Now for the big one. Amendment 2 "A well-regulated militia, being necessary to the security of a free state, the right of the people to keep and bear arms shall not be infringed". How many of you understand that one? We have a great many Cities and States that don't understand it yet. Guns are here to stay, and the only way you will claim my guns is in my dead cold hands.

I wonder how long is it going to take for the militia to get "well-regulated"?

Just a side note for non-americans: Not all of us think like that, I am sure you know that, but I just wanted to make that clear. And even some the more patriotic among us realize there is room for improvemet.

Back on topic: I like Civ-specific attributes, esp. that they are customizable....

	12-08-2001 05:22									#76
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America is indeed a land of good constitution... (exceptions (like the arms thing) excluded). Too bad its people are too hypocrit and fascist to make the world a better place with it.

Now:

quote: "A well-regulated militia, being necessary to the security of a free state, the right of the people to keep and bear arms shall not be infringed".

That I find sickening. What do you NEED guns for in a peaceful society, mm? Oh and about the sueing thing, religious people will sue atheists as well. It's the American way. If you don't like it come to Europe. But hey! Too little violence, too much rationalism. You'd never fit in.






*sighs*
It always does me good to see my theory approved that the greater part of America is Fascist. I hereby apologise to Americans that are not fascist.

	12-08-2001 11:02									#77
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quote: Originally posted by Warm Beer I wonder how long is it going to take for the militia to get "well-regulated"?

Before you guy go off, I will never be part of a militia. I do not belived in them or their cause.

However I do believe in the Constitution, the whole Constitution not just parts here or there like some people would like.

Do I own guns, yes, are they loaded, no. Do I carry them, no.

	12-08-2001 11:20									#78
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quote: Originally posted by ajbera Most atheists are ready to live and let live - don't push your religion down their throats, and they won't push their lack of belief on you.

I wrote that because they started the suing over a prayer at a High School Game and Graduations. Those prayer never hurt anyone or anything. If you don't believe in it just sit there and don't say a word.

	12-08-2001 12:39									#79
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quote: Originally posted by Ribannah As an atheist, I resent this. My values are in no way less than yours. In fact, from the content of your post, I do not like your values at all.

Your problem not mine. I do not have a problem with you as a person, but your group, yes I do. I do not like any group that causes problem for other people. In the U.S. your group started the problem by suing to removing religious item from every public building in the country. One last thing, I hope one day you will have a change of mind on this God thing.

quote: I fail to see what #2 and #4 are doing in this rant.

Our version #2 is Anti-Black, Jew, Catholic, Latino, and Oriental.
I have several friends who are Black, Latino, Catholic, Jewish and Oriental. In fact I'm Catholic and my wife is 75% Chinese.

# 4 I swore to the United States Government twice that I would defend our country from our enemy. Communism is the enemy of the U.S.
I do not have a problem with the people of the formal Soviet Union or China. I do have a problem with their Gov.
My Father-in-Law was born in Canton Prov in 1910. Two of his brothers were imprison for being school teacher, nothing more. My F-i-L sent money to his mother, she never received it. I not sure if some of you guys get it.

quote: All democratic countries in the case of #2 and #4, of course, unfortunately also in the case of #1, but happily only your country has a #3.

I thought the Nazi were not welcome in Germany.

quote: This is the main reason why I shall never live in your country.

Your problem, not mine.

I do not like those groups. Would I walk across the street to start a fight? NO. If I saw them attacking you, would I help you defend yourself? YES.
We have two Latino gangs in town. One from the South and one from the North. I know some of kids on both sides, and my wife and I are friends with some of them. They all know if they start trouble when I'm around I will report them, and if they start it at school I will bust them if I see it.
I do not go into the street and proclaim myself. My view are normally kept to myself, however one of the guy wanted to know how come nobody answer his post, so I answer it.

	12-08-2001 14:27									#80
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quote: Originally posted by joseph1944 Your problem not mine. I do not have a problem with you as a person, but your group, yes I do. I do not like any group that causes problem for other people. In the U.S. your group started the problem by suing to removing religious item from every public building in the country. One last thing, I hope one day you will have a change of mind on this God thing. Our version #2 is Anti-Black, Jew, Catholic, Latino, and Oriental. I have several friends who are Black, Latino, Catholic, Jewish and Oriental. In fact I'm Catholic and my wife is 75% Chinese. # 4 I swore to the United States Government twice that I would defend our country from our enemy. Communism is the enemy of the U.S. I do not have a problem with the people of the formal Soviet Union or China. I do have a problem with their Gov. My Father-in-Law was born in Canton Prov in 1910. Two of his brothers were imprison for being school teacher, nothing more. My F-i-L sent money to his mother, she never received it. I not sure if some of you guys get it. I thought the Nazi were not welcome in Germany. Your problem, not mine. I do not like those groups. Would I walk across the street to start a fight? NO. If I saw them attacking you, would I help you defend yourself? YES. We have two Latino gangs in town. One from the South and one from the North. I know some of kids on both sides, and my wife and I are friends with some of them. They all know if they start trouble when I'm around I will report them, and if they start it at school I will bust them if I see it. I do not go into the street and proclaim myself. My view are normally kept to myself, however one of the guy wanted to know how come nobody answer his post, so I answer it.

This is ridiculously off-topic.

	12-08-2001 14:33									#81
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quote: Originally posted by Kenobi This is ridiculously off-topic.

Not to worry, Kenobi. I have reported his discriminating posts to the mods, hopefully they will be deleted soon.

	12-08-2001 16:25									#82
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take it to the off-topic people or i'll have to close this thread....

	12-08-2001 19:52									#83
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quote: Originally posted by uncle_funk The Spanish discovered main parts of the New World, giving names to a lot of the regions still there today (ever wondered where "America" originates?

I personally think that there could be some people living in the New World for eons before the Spanard came. So how could they "discovered" the New World?

Odd

	12-08-2001 21:26									#84
	Vespucci Avatar Enlargement: We've got the solution

Colon-

Vespucci made four trips to the Americas and the first two were for the Spanish crown. He was also a Spanish citizen. In 1505, by a royal decree of 14 April of that year, he had received Spanish naturalization, and a decree of 6 August, 1508, named him piloto mayor de España, a title corresponding to the modern one of head of the admiralty, and which was borne by Vespucci until his death.

So he chose Spain to be his mother country even though it wasn't his country of birth. I'd say he's Spanish.

Would be weird to live in the Vepuccias though...

Some people in the US are not religious. Some people are. But the society as a whole is secular and there is a separation of Church and State. I am not saying this is good or bad, just pointing out the fact that the US shouldn't get religious bonuses. Perhaps in the days of the Quakers, Amish and others, but certainly not today.

	12-08-2001 23:10									#85
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joseph: I've always wondered how many Americans understand the second amendment. They mostly seem to think it's about the right to randomly shoot prowlers in your back yard.

The Militia, as concieved in Machiavelli's Discourses on the First Ten Books of Titus Livius, is an instrument for a populace whose leadership has deviated from the goals of the republic, used in order to restore its freedom. Deviate from this goal, and the militia is no longer well-regulated. It is with such a militia in mind that the second amendment is on place, and no other.

Er, wait, I need something on-topic to satisfy Markos. I'd say Expansionist/Commercial should be the American traits.

	12-08-2001 23:56									#86
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quote: Originally posted by KrazyHorse Did anyone else notice that the civs are colour-coordinated in the Abilities screen? The groupings seem to be geographic in nature. Northern Europe: New World: Asia (excluding Russia): Mediterranean: The civs we couldn't put anywhere else:

Somewhere in the past there was mention of 5 cultures types in Civ3, are these them? Kinda funny seeing the Zulus and Persians having the same culture, but I guess it'd tough to divide them differently and still keep the culture model simple.

	13-08-2001 00:03									#87
	Remove this text

The commercial/scientific combo appears to be the best combo for a builder game. Ironic that it's the Greeks who have this combo, they spent most of their ancient history fighting amongst each other and probably have Alexander as the Great as their leader. While I can't argue against the commercial scientific, there can be a real easy arguement for choosing militaristic.


Please Firaxis put in an civ abilities randomizer that doesn't change the leader personality also

	13-08-2001 00:10									#88
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quote: Originally posted by SerapisIV Kinda funny seeing the Zulus and Persians having the same culture, but I guess it'd tough to divide them differently and still keep the culture model simple.

Please don't start discussing the similarity between cultures as its sure to turn into an OT topic with alot of angry feelings and spam. On the culture groups, I think you are correct Serapis.

	13-08-2001 00:27									#89
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I will probably change the German abilities to Militaristic/Scientific, perhaps in the hope of simulating the Nazi war machine. The U.S. could be just about anything, but I'd probably change it to Scientific/Industrial or Sci/Commercial.

What would be a nice touch would be an option to randomly change civ attributes at different points of the game, in an effort to simulate new leaders and attitudes among the populace. If the editing/"event" tools are sufficiently cool, maybe this can be written in as an event for scenarios.

	13-08-2001 00:30									#90
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quote: Originally posted by Snapcase Joseph: I've always wondered how many Americans understand the second amendment. They mostly seem to think it's about the right to randomly shoot prowlers in your back yard.

I wrote that just to see what kind of response I would get.
In California your scenario would put a person in prison.

quote: The Militia, as concieved in Machiavelli's Discourses on the First Ten Books of Titus Livius, is an instrument for a populace whose leadership has deviated from the goals of the republic, used in order to restore its freedom. Deviate from this goal, and the militia is no longer well-regulated. It is with such a militia in mind that the second amendment is on place, and no other.

Actually this was put in place, so a state could not disarm. However the Fed can disarm.

quote: Er, wait, I need something on-topic to satisfy Markos. I'd say Expansionist/Commercial should be the American traits.

I think out Expansionist idea were in place so we would have a coast to coast country. After that was accomplish, we gave other territory back. Cube and Philippines was returned.
Jefferson wanted to expand, other leader only wanted the 13 original colonies, however those colonies were a lot larger then the state they made up later. New York when all of the way to Ohio, Virginia cover Kentucky, North Carolina cover Tennessee, Georgia cover Alabama and part of Mississippi, and South Carolina had a small strip of land spitting Georgia, Alabama and Tennessee.

Look at China today, they want to expand into parts of India and Russia, and they want Taiwan real bad.