10-08-2001 07:13									#1
	Sunspots and Attrocities Browse Apolyton AD-FREE

I know many of us gleefully nerve staple everything in sight during sunspot activity (normally while pop booming). Recently, sunspot activity hit right in the middle of my world conquest. I of course nerve stapled all newly conquered bases (and I had the Cloning Vats to boot.) Coming out of the sunspot activity, all factions from whom I took bases and then nerve stapled their citizens essentially accused me of attrocities, etc., and would not surrender. When I had the council vote me as a Diplomatic Victor, these same factions revolted.

Apparently then, the AI still treats captured bases as its own bases for attrocity purposes. If you nerve staple a captured base, you have an enemy that will not surrender.

Thus, one should pause and consider whether you really want to wipe this particular faction out before nerve stapling a captured base, because once you do, that faction will never surrender.

Ned

	10-08-2001 07:53									#2
	Got spare money?

The AI regards captured citizens its own. A captured Spartan city would be full of Spartans..nerve stapling the population would then be quite offensive, natuarally, to Santiago. As you found out, not even sunspot activity can shield that type of atrocity.

	10-08-2001 09:35									#3
	Support Apolyton, buy Civilization III: Complete

This is probably a terrible thing to say. But I never really understood why nerve stapling is atrocity ...I mean sure it makes subjects act like in Orwell's 1984...but...my goverment knows absolutely nothing about nerve stapling

Atrocities shouldn't count in council during sun spots I'm pretty sure Nerve gassing doesn't...not that my gov would've ever used such a horrible tool of offense ...

	10-08-2001 21:02									#4
	Enter the AD-FREE zone

A faction to which we commit an attrocity, always remembers that attrocity, be it nerve stapling, gas, or whatever. Sunspots only prevent other factions from finding out and the loss of trade income. AFAIK, we don't get ecodamage from gassing during sunspots either.

	11-08-2001 05:39									#5
	Got spare money?

big-c, Yeah, I learned that the hard way. I really like to get submissives so that I can reliably give them conquered bases and tech. In this game, I had one pact mate, Domai, that stayed faithful the whole game, even though after the revolt of the gang of four, he refused to talk to me again. (That was a real pain b/c I had to keep dozens of captured base I would otherwise had given him.) However, I never did get any other faction to surrender. Conquest was both arduous and tedious. I ended up transcending just before capturing the last AI base.

Had I know this in advance, I would never have nerve stapled captured bases.

BTW, this also explains why the AI once declared WAR after I had taken a base through total thought control. The AI knew that base was his base, but when his unit arrived to find it in my possession, he drew the proper conclusions and declared war.

Ned

	11-08-2001 13:46									#6
	Inflate your Upload Space

quote: The AI knew that base was his base, but when his unit arrived to find it in my possession, he drew the proper conclusions and declared war.

So, how does this really work? Total Thought Control is suppose to take over the base without AI having to find out who did it. It also supposedly has no effect on your integrity. I guess only the latter is true? Since it must be of no diffculty to find out who just happened to Thought Control your base?

	11-08-2001 20:23									#7
	Full PM-box? Change here!

I alway thought that Total Thought Control meant that the whole planet would be probed to believe that the base belongs to the prober faction and that it has always belonged to it. That way, the faction shouldn't get mad because it doesn't know the base was their's.

	11-08-2001 21:55									#8
	Avatar Enlargement: We've got the solution

total thought control is not the same as "traceless subversion" in civ2, it means that there will not be any drones, but it's still a major offence.

	11-08-2001 23:03									#9
	Remove this text

I cannot recall what happened precisely under the circumstances described in my previous note, however I believe the total thought controlled base was a "captured" base. If this is true, then its map symbol would have stayed the same as Domai's, the faction from whom I took the base. As well, the drone screen would have said "captured" base.

If anyone actually knows the answer here, it would be helpful. Otherwise, I will run a simple SE test.

Ned

	12-08-2001 02:15									#10
	Tired of ads?

As I understand it Thought Control causes neither an integrity or relations hit. Then again I can recall TC'ing a hive base and a few turns later Yang declaring war, but I wouldn't be TC'ing his bases if our relations were good, so co-incidence is quite possible.

What I believe Thought Control does is make it appear that a revolt happened.

	12-08-2001 06:23									#11
	Inflate your Upload Space

back to the atrocities thing

what if you obliterate or nerve staple a captured alien base (the ones you gas that is )? i know atrocities (except PB's) againts them, don't cause sanctions, but technically since all the aliens citizens flee the city, the people you are obliterating are humans. i've never tried this because i was afraid to because of sanctions. they hurt!

	12-08-2001 06:30									#12
	Remove this text

I'm pretty sure it would have no effect. Try it out, would you? I rarely play as or with either alien race, so I wouldn't know. If you can, then aliens really seem overpowered at first, but WAY too easy to take down later.

	12-08-2001 09:05									#13
	Put an end to popups!

Well I have nerve stapled captured Alien bases. The Alien factions really gets pissed off. But the rest of the humans don't seem to care.
No sanctions.

Ned

	12-08-2001 11:13									#14
	Inflate your Upload Space

Backing off and being a bit more general, the various atrocities - most of them count as atrocities for the ED calculation, don't they? Insofar as they do, does it matter whether there are sunspots or not?

	12-08-2001 20:51									#15
	Support Apolyton, buy Galactic Civilizations: Deluxe Edition

Johnd, Using Planetbusters and Techtonic Missiles cause ED. Since I have never eliminated a human base through attrocities, I don't know what effect that has. However, using attrocities on Aliens has no effect on ED. Neither does nerve stapling humans.

Ned

	13-08-2001 00:30									#16
	Support Apolyton buy from Amazon

quote: Originally posted by Blake As I understand it Thought Control causes neither an integrity or relations hit. Then again I can recall TC'ing a hive base and a few turns later Yang declaring war, but I wouldn't be TC'ing his bases if our relations were good, so co-incidence is quite possible. What I believe Thought Control does is make it appear that a revolt happened.

Even under a total mind control, the AI still percieves the base as captured, even if it doesn't complain diplomatically. I tested it out by thought controlling an AI civ, and then turned on the scenario editor. The AI immediately had several units sent on Goto commands through my territory (ingoring my borders and several bases in between) into the mind controlled base.

	13-08-2001 00:38									#17
	Support Apolyton, pre-order Civilization IV

What is the connection between sunspots and atrocities, what atrocities can you get away with during sunspot activites? Or does it just come and bite you later after the suspots stop?

	13-08-2001 03:51									#18
	Support Apolyton, buy Alpha Centauri

All. Ned

	13-08-2001 03:53									#19
	Support Apolyton

At least nerve stapling. However, I am not sure one gets a free ride with a Planet Buster. Ned

	13-08-2001 11:12									#20
	Support Apolyton

Planet Busting is not easily forgiven, even if the faction leaders can't chat on their comlinks. I've tried to do it with an innocent look on my face afterwards. Lal looked as grim as he usually does after a PB.

	13-08-2001 11:16									#21
	Get a bigger avatar today!

What kind of information do human players get along these lines in MP? Vendettas don't happen automatically, do they? When one human player commits an atrocity against another, say the nerve stapling of captured base citizens, is there notification?

If there is info passed to a human when another human atrocitizes them, does that also occur during or right after sunspots? I gather from the postings here that the AI is aparently cogniscent that an atrocity occurred to them under sunspots. Obviously, some things will be obvious to a human player to, like when his base is mind controlled (unless the mind control is real and not just part of the game); IIRC, when the AI does a mind control on one of your bases, there is a message to that effect in SP at least, presumably in MP as well, but one does get less of that sort of info in MP; what if it were the Total Mind Control variant, would the program omit the message? Should an ethical game player accept that the base has always belonged to the new owner? Are there messages or warnings or automatic vendettas when it it human to human?