10-08-2001 13:20									#1
	No Spanish/Hispanic/Latino civ in civ3 Avatar Enlargement: We've got the solution

Yes, I just learned about it. Not a single Latino/Hispanic civ. What kind of world history-based game can leave the history of 800 million people aside? I posted about this over the Civ3 forum as well. Here is the thread:

http://apolyton.net/forums/showthre...&threadid=24157



I am mostly interested in what you people of the Hispanic community & friends think? The brilliant minds at Firaxis have totally ignored the Latino community once more. Replies in Spanish are okay too

Last edited by Jay Bee on 10-08-2001 at 18:09

	10-08-2001 19:49									#2
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It's rediculous.

Are they totally ignorent of who settled a whole continent?!!?

There are only seven continents, of which only six are habitable, yet people from Iberia settled one (South America) and have a tremendous and growing population on another! (North America)

So what civs were deemed more worthy of inclusion?

Some very poor decisions here, I think.

	10-08-2001 20:01									#3
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It would really be great if someone from FIRAXIS explained to us what the inclusion/exclusion criteria were. This is really a big turn-off for me. I was quite interested to see what special unit, and other characteristics would the Iberian tribe be given.

I guess I will stick to Civ2 longer than I expected

Or maybe a few of us could create the 'Latino patch' to remedy this. But getting 3D units to work, leader portraits and all that fancy stuff looks like an impossible task to me right now. Who would be willing to get himself involved in a project like that? Dunno.

	10-08-2001 20:44									#4
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I just wrote a long response in that thread, it's worth reading.

	10-08-2001 23:04									#5
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I've been browsing the threads, no need to say how disapointed I am.

Obviously Yankees didn't want to rewrite History including their main rival in the conquest of America: Spanish (4 them this term means the same latin/hispanic/spaniard).

JB, anything I can do, any help to make them to see how wrong they are, or to demonstarte them which part of History are they forgetting, let me know.

	11-08-2001 01:10									#6
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I think it's a lost cause. Just read the responses of some of the posters on the other thread. It's amazing how daring the ignorance can be. You can say I agree or I disagree, this or that, but not make such a pile of ignorant assumptions and half truths. Gee, I never talk about issues I have no clue about! Not the norm at Apolyton, it seems. But I have been here long enough to know this

I would have hoped the people at Firaxis be a bit more 'literate' history-wise. It's clear they can't: Mongols are also out. How do these guys tell Asian history without the Mongols?

Incidentally, have you noticed that three out of the four more-or-less Iberian-related civs in Civ2 have been eliminated?

All I know at this time is that Firaxis does not have my support. They do not care. Neither do I.

I just saw a copy of Call to Power 2 at a Carrefour shopping center. Maybe it's time to give it a try.

	11-08-2001 02:38									#7
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It's an outrage that the Spanish have been left out.

What kind of influence have the Aztecs, Zulus or Iroquois had on civilization? But these were deemed more important than the Spanish.

The Iroquois population at the height of their influence was about 25,000. Finally the Aztecs lost to a handful of Spanish soldiers and the Zulus to a handful of English soldiers.

Jay Bee, I too would like to know what Firaxis was thinking.

	11-08-2001 03:57									#8
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no civilizacion de españica!

es horrible

los Aztecas (belong) mas (than the Iroquis... who the #*#*# cares about the Iroquis... the Aztecs put up more of a fight than the Iroquis!)

los Incas (were) un civilizacion de mas importencia!

Spanish (were/POR?) (an extremely) bueno colonacion civilizacion!

	11-08-2001 09:13									#9
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What? Not even an Argentine civ for the US to vassalise?

	11-08-2001 12:04									#10
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Did I read correctly?

No Spanish Civ in CivIII?
Hang on...
A) is CivIII in the same format as its predecesor

B)or is it simply about you naming the Tribe yourself and trying to manage a world?

If it is following option A then I am slightly bemused, I could predict that Civ III would be a poor succesor to Classic CivII and this simply proves it.

	11-08-2001 16:59									#11
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These are indeed bad news, but I can't really say that they come as a surprise to me. It's been clear to me that Firaxis just want to make loads of money.

I guess they expect us to buy the "Fantastic Civs" expansion pack, so we can play the Spanish, the Mongols and the Incas, and then the FCII expansion pack so we can have the Portuguese, the Ottomans and the Dutch. So to speak.

Civ3 will be a great profit for Firaxis. But it won't be as great a game as Civ and Civ2 were. We have enough hints now.

PS: On an optimistic note, I think that we can always work together to get our Spanish/Latin Civ, assuming that Firaxis provide us with the necessary tools...

	11-08-2001 18:12									#12
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quote: Originally posted by Fiera These are indeed bad news, but I can't really say that they come as a surprise to me. It's been clear to me that Firaxis just want to make loads of money.

Yeah, I was reluctant to accept this in the beginning but now I see it pretty clearly.

quote: I guess they expect us to buy the "Fantastic Civs" expansion pack, so we can play the Spanish, the Mongols and the Incas, and then the FCII expansion pack so we can have the Portuguese, the Ottomans and the Dutch. So to speak.

Yes, that seems to be their scheme.

quote: Civ3 will be a great profit for Firaxis. But it won't be as great a game as Civ and Civ2 were. We have enough hints now.

What amazes me is that many people do prefer fancy graphics over gameplay. Firaxis is gonna give'em lots of funny guys doing the Rain Dance. Everybody happy.

quote: PS: On an optimistic note, I think that we can always work together to get our Spanish/Latin Civ, assuming that Firaxis provide us with the necessary tools...

Oh, forget about it. They are not going to allow others to milk their money-making cow

	11-08-2001 18:40									#13
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I know it's useless, but at least we still have the right to the "pataleo".

askthecivteam@firaxis.com

	12-08-2001 03:37									#14
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I started to draft a letter but halfway into it I realized that besides useless, it was also childish. Let's leave them with their ignorance. But it's still sad to verify once more that money is the only thing that matters to the Angloamerican world.

	12-08-2001 07:29									#15
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Indeed disappointing! The Spanish have cast a long shadow over history for many centuries. Their culture has spread and outlasted their political might, both of which clearly outshine some of the civs included.

The Iroquois are in to be politically correct, no doubt. Sure they pretty much taught the Americans how to:

• Farm in the americas
  
• go anywhere not on the coast
  
• set up a constitutional government

	15-08-2001 02:05									#16
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Marquis, thanks for your input. You can't imagine how relieving is for me to read opinions like yours. Where do you post from? Need to know this in order to include to include your name in the Apolyton Hispanica Location List You deserve to be there at least as much as the most desrving one.

	15-08-2001 07:29									#17
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JayBee, I live in Land o' Lakes! That's "Minnesota" in Ojibwe. If you need a spot for the map, Minneapolis is a few pixels southwest of the westernmost extent of Lago Superior. I am honored to be included on the list.

By the way, I enjoy playing your scenarios very much.

	17-08-2001 15:12									#18
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Not adding the Spanish is a totally ridiculous and unproffessional decision. If anybody ever thought about the impact each Civilization had on world history, they'd come to surprising conclusions. The Babylonian civilization has been independent for just barely two centuries until it was surpressed by other regional powers. Not even the empire of Nebuchadnezzar should be called "Babylonian" for they were Chaldaeans, their empire was based only in Babylon (The Persians had their politcal centre in Elam but were no Elamites). By the time (just as an example) the Persians took Babylon nobody remembered Hammurabi, who is so praised on the Civ3 homepage. The strengthe of Babylon has passed, the great administration and code of laws were lost until they were rediscovered three millenia after they were made.
Spain on the other hand is in my opinion one of the most influental powers of all times. In contrary to [B]every[/I] other civilization, perhaps except for the Romans, their achievements have been of so vital importance to the structurization of the earth that you can find a map of their empire in even the most nationalistic german history book. I mean it. One atlas of mine is entitled "30 maps to German history", printed in 1913, and although it focusses on German history, the Spanish are praised and a number of pages is dedicated entirely to them.

Now this text may not change anything, but it is my personal example of why the Spaniards have got to be included in such a game.

	17-08-2001 18:09									#19
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quote: Originally posted by Marquis de Sodaq The Iroquois are in to be politically correct, no doubt. Sure they pretty much taught the Americans how to: Farm in the americas go anywhere not on the coast set up a constitutional government Even so, they paled in historical importance and advancement to the Maya or Inca. Gothmog, there were far more than 25000 Iroquois, easily ten times that number after most were wiped out by epidemics.

My source for Iroquois population comes from the Osprey publication "American Woodland Indians". It refers only to the Six Nations which were located in upper New York State. Now the Iroquois Empire did extend beyond that area, so if you want to count it that way, your number is probably correct as well.

I agree that the Iroquois are probably "in" because of political correctness. Now that I think of it, yhe Spanish are probably "out" because of political correctness. After all they were the first to go over to the "New World", (another politically incorrect term) and ruin everything.

	17-08-2001 19:00									#20
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He, he it's quite funny to notice how paranoid about Spain still are some people (it's remarkable to see they are mainly dutch/brits/yanks, old spanish enemies), the best argument to demonstrate that Spain shoud have been in BTW.
There's nothing to fear from Spain now, we're only a second row country -we keep on going to work on a donkey-)
The only purpose of this threads was to make as much noise as possible, we couldn't do it without your unvaluable help. THANK YOU

	17-08-2001 22:55									#21
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Waku,

Well, I would not generalize that much. The vast majority of people agree with us in that this is a gross mistake. A very significant percentage or those are either Americans or English. That doesn't surprise me in the least. What happens also is that, obviously, they do not feel about this as strongly as we do.

About the paranoids, they are only a little bunch of nerds. Three or four at most. Probably very young and as such, daring, agressive, and generally ignorant. In other words, most of the time they do not know what they're talking about and are only looking for notoriety. The best way to obtain notoriety on an internet forum is, we all know it, to get into flame wars.

How old can you guess our friend Bananaramah is? Such an obsession, such an anger are very difficult to explain in a mentally-stable fully grown-up. She's probably alienated with some pamphlet she's recently read about how cruel the Duke of Alba was up there and this is the result. As for the other, he's just trolling. His profile says he's 18. I would not be surprised if he's even less than that. But I particularly find this one very funny. He's so obvious... The last one who showed up is 12.... Are we gonna waste more time with that bunch of nerds? Not me. After posting those Arabic sentences that I have been having on the top of my head for several days, I am definitely done with this.

to your Australian links. Let's see what is the new troll this guy comes up with now.


Gothmog

I admit I had given a thought to that too. But discarded it. I just refuse to admit that somebody could be so mentally retarded. Until strong evidence shows otherwise, I will stick to the theory that marketing reasons demanded it. I am a good-hearted man, you see

	18-08-2001 03:19									#22
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Jay Bee
I agree that to say Spain was excluded by Firaxis for political incorrectitude is a stretch. I was only half serious. Lacking any other coherent explanation, I have to consider the PC theory. The marketing theory makes no sense to me.

	18-08-2001 03:28									#23
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Why not?

PS. I see you've changed your sig. I loved the old one so much

	18-08-2001 11:06									#24
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I would like to thank all the anglo bashers, it really was fun being insulted repeatedly. (My mother was born in Britain, remember?)

I was also edjucated in the US.

Thanks for the sterotypes.

	18-08-2001 14:15									#25
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quote: Originally posted by Chris 62 I would like to thank all the anglo bashers, it really was fun being insulted repeatedly. (My mother was born in Britain, remember?) I was also edjucated in the US. Thanks for the sterotypes.

I was very saddened to read this. Please accept my apologies on behalf of those who hurt you.

I hope you did not misunderstand the comments I made above about Americans and British.

quote: Originally posted by Jay Bee The vast majority of people agree with us in that this is a gross mistake. A very significant percentage or those are either Americans or English. That doesn't surprise me in the least.

I guess you did not, but just in case, let me make absolutely clear that these sentences meant to praise the positive attitude of most US and English posters with regards to this stupid flame war that a few nerds orchestrated.

I live in America and thus I got to know the American way of thinking quite well, and that's why I know that, contray to what some people may think, the American is neither ignorant not arrogant. Quite the contrary. About the English, well, they aren't much different from the Spaniards. In my opinion they are actually lookalikes in so many things. However, unlike us, The English people are generally very understanding. The behavior of American and English posters in this silly matter only confirms what I already knew. There are bad apples everywhere. We all have to suffer from these.

But this is what happens when people start posting trash instead of (a) making a friendly approach or (b) posting nothing at all. At least 90% of the Anglo bashing should be credited to the arrogance of an Englishman (no need to give his name). People only counterattacked.

As for the US bashing, well, that seems to be the national sport of more than a half of the world. What can you do? It's just an obvious sign of a big inferiority complex. Ignore it or take it as a joke.

	18-08-2001 15:51									#26
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Hey Chris, welcome to the club
As a German I've had to listen to quite a few insults during my short life now.
The important thing is that you just ignore this. They're a couple of uneducated idiots who don't know how to behave properly.

	20-08-2001 07:45									#27
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Civilization is not, has never been, and never will be a historically accurate game. My needs for historical accuracy will be satisfied by Europa Universalis 2 (Q4 2001) that includes a world-wide selection of civs (including Portugal, Spain, Aragon, Catalonia, Navarre, and Al-Andalus) and very flexible customization.

Civ3's exclusion of the Spanish is lamentable but logical. They are limited to a palette of sixteen civilizations by design (I'm in the "64+ civs, animation be damned" camp).
-England and France are widely known; so is Germany.
-Greeks and Romans are very famous and also make it in.
-Russians are a questionable choice - Spain was certainly more important overall - but the Cold War is still a fresh memory and they make it.
-So far 5 civs have been spent filling a puny peninsula of Asia, making the Play on Earth option rather boring.
-Americans are a spiritual successor of the British, but Firaxis has to contend with the jingoistic multitudes and it gets in.
-Aztecs are widely known; Mayae and Incae are not. Guess who makes it in.
-Iroquois are forced in to fill up America (I would have preferred more SE Asian civs).
-Chinese, Japanese, and the generalized Indians get in to fill up the largest continent.
-Persians and Babylonians get the Middle East (Hittites would have been a nice third).
-Africa's empty, so Zulus (What about Mali, Songhai, Ghana, and Abyssinia?) are stuck in.
-Thus, all sixteen slots have been used up.

P.S. IMHO, Los Angeles as capital of a Latino empire is worse than nothing at all. It's akin to having Halifax as capital of a Celtic empire.

	20-08-2001 15:08									#28
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Forget it. I take it back.

Last edited by Stefan Härtel on 20-08-2001 at 15:39

	21-08-2001 00:47									#29
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quote: Originally posted by St Leo -England and France are widely known; so is Germany. -Greeks and Romans are very famous and also make it in. -Americans are a spiritual successor of the British, but Firaxis has to contend with the jingoistic multitudes and it gets in. -Aztecs are widely known;

I'd like to insist on the teletubbies option.

	21-08-2001 01:51									#30
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I'd like to insist on the teletubbies option.

Unfortunately, all rights to the teletubbies are owned by someone and Firaxis can't afford to pay the licensing fees.