23-12-2000 07:07									#1
	The Great Library -- to build or not to build Help yourself to an AD-FREE life

Hello Civ2 fans,

I was reading a recent post that transposed into this subject and I wanted to hear your views. GL or no GL. For me, GL. I conquer early. My tech tends to go Monarchy-Philosophy-Invention-Democracy. The GL is the only near indespensible ancient wonder for me. GL enables me to put min % in science when I get Lady Liberty and switch to Fundy. I can build hoards and amass gold and be no worse than tied for 2nd 'til ELECTRICITY. The whole time which egghead sucker civ do you think will get the brunt of my Grand Armee.
Some famous poster said that it takes longer to research your techs w/GL, I disagree. Although any specific tech may not be researched first, given that all techs are mandatory and you lose no beakers thru conquest or GL the stored beakers will eventually get your chosen tech first. This combined with attacking AI civ tech leader for me means NO ONE gets electricity at all because when I rule the world, everybody practices green simple living.

Merry Holidays,

Maelhavok

	23-12-2000 08:17									#2
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I am a nay-sayer. It doesn't make you lose beakers. With every tech that you research, it takes an increasing amount of beakers to research a tech. The AI usually picks to research bad techs, meaning you get those bad techs and a higher rate of research. So if you were to want a specific tech, then you would have to raise your science rate which in effect reduces the use of the GL signifigantly.

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	23-12-2000 12:04									#3
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I'm finding more and more that what I tend to do is not build the GL. With judicious care and planning I can keep it under 10 turns/tech and rush to Metalurgy and Electricity which will kill off the two biggest headaches to deal with if someone else has them at Deity, but do very little to help except against the barbarians. I'm also leaning more toward Gunpowder then Chivelry so that I can create Barbarian knights to hassle everyone else and still have a decent defense against them myself.

Another reason for not building the GL and for killing it early is that it seems to be fairly high on the list for the AI, the same as KRC. The AI Civs will keep starting and abandoning it over and over until someone finally completes it. At that point the only value that they have to you is for score points so let them build those instead of Hover's, liberty, or SETI which are much more useful to you.

Ken

	23-12-2000 17:25									#4
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It depends on the game, but I like the Great Library. You're going to have to research every tech anyway, so while it might delay getting a specific tech, no matter how you count it you end up needing less beakers overall - thus, a gain.

If I'm on a good trade map, I don't build it. But if I'm on a low trade map, I build it every time. Try playing the Persians on Carta Incognita from Maps of Complexity - a real challenge and the Great Library made the difference for me.
[This message has been edited by ChrisShaffer (edited December 23, 2000).]

	23-12-2000 19:29									#5
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It depends on how good you are.

When I play on emperor level(never won yet ) I always build it, without it I find myself far behind the other civs.

On lower levels I always far ahead of them so there is no need in wasting time and shields on the GL.

	23-12-2000 21:45									#6
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I build it so the annoying AI doesn't get a tech every time I trade with another AI.

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	24-12-2000 06:36									#7
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The thing is , you don't need to research every tech to win. Even with a perfectionist strategy, your going to take out some ai's at some point. The GL slows specific research and gives you techs in reality, you don't really need. I used to build it, never any more. It stalls my science growth.

	24-12-2000 07:57									#8
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i am an advocate of the GL in most games. I always play at deity and find that the easiest way to win is to slow the whole science thing down in the middle game. As I said in another thread, if you slow your own science rate, so do the AIs. With the GL, you won't fall behind. Once I get the SOL, or using Oedo's years, I switch between democracy and fundy, depending on my goals in winning. The GL is a really powerful tool in this.

I understand that in MP, the GL is regarded as a real prize, another proof of its value.

	28-12-2000 21:43									#9
	Help yourself to an AD-FREE life

As a warning, I've only played single player, so my views will be somewhat narrow minded.

The Great Library is a wonderful, wonderful wonder if you're going to set your science rate low and concentrate on a military. It means "free" techs with no effort.

I, however, usually play to win via the space race. Here keeping ahead of the AI in research is important.

A couple comments on the "I have to research every tech anyway" view.

1) When you get a certain tech is important. The first civilization to say Monotheism is much more likely to build Michaelangelo's Cathedral than the second or third. Theology is a useless and research-impeding tech if you get it after J.S. Bach's has been built. Wonders are very potent in Civ 2 so it often becomes a game of races for the next wonder. In these races a streamlined tech path is more important than merely knowing a lot of techs. Even if you have to eventually learn a tech, learning it later rather than earlier can be a big help due to wonder building considerations.

Getting a tech for "free" from the Great Library means you don't have spend beakers to get it, so it would seem that you'll spend fewer beakers overall to get to Space Flight. However, the Great Library might make you miss out on some tech-enhancing wonders (Copernicus's Observatory being a big one with the AI). These wonders give you back "free" beakers that you can use on techs of your choosing.

2) You can sometimes skip over early techs and never research them if you get lucky with tech trading. Railroad is a pretty important tech. To get it you need Bridge Building and to get that you need Iron Working and to get that you need Warrior Code. So I guess you need all these techs, right? Not so. A friendly AI might trade you Iron Working or Bridge Building, meaning you'd never have to learn Warrior Code at all (we need railroads, not archers). That way you'd have (at least) one less tech in your bag slowing down your research.

I've only recently realized the importance of a streamlined tech path. It's easy to think of your rate of research or needed beakers as a mysterious factor out of your control and merely wait until the game sees fit to give you your next advance. On this board I've learned that I can influence my research rate in ways other than sending out more caravans.

	29-12-2000 10:15									#10
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Edward, excellent observation on bypassing techs. I'm not convinced about the GL, but I do understand the "streamlined tech path" faction a little more clearly based on your observation. Note, I do not always go for world conquering. I decide the direction at Fundamentalism time. If I'm reasonably sure I can, I'll conquer. If not, I'll go to Democracy and get a huge leap on the AI, who won't change govs and science rates quite as quickly. Even in Fundy, I'll switch to Demo for a military tech or two, and in Demo to Fundy to pump out a quick set of units or improvements, before switching back in both cases.

	31-12-2000 23:31									#11
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In single player the GL used to be one of my favourite wonders. Now I never build it against the AI. Why? It simply is not needed to win either way (conquest or space race). All those shields can be used to build better things IMHO.

However, I see some use of it in MP. Last night I played in a 7 player simultaneous game, alliances allowed, map size 100x100 (I think). Right at the beginning of the game I decided to go for the GL, something that was even more tempting when I discovered I was somewhat isolated on a fairly small island. Why?

First of all the GL is more useful when you play humans, because they tend to make better tech choices than the AI. Second, on a map that large early contact is, well, not so early. Trading techs with others is (possibly) delayed, increasing the importance of GL and the Embassy.

It also prevents (to some extent) allies from changing techs, or at least forces them to be more careful about when and which techs to trade. This can of course also be a disadvantage (as noted by people above) in that people can trade useless (for the moment anyway) techs to slow you down.

As an example, when I started to research construction I had a science rate of 7 or 8 turns. Techs dropped in from the GL, and when I finally got construction the rate was about 15 turns (which I got down to 11 when researching engineering by founding more cities and rearranging workers).

Another drawback is the random element mentioned in posts above. For example, I got feudalism from the GL meaning that warriors were no longer an option in the building list. The first row of shields thus vanished making rushbuilding more expensive. Also, if I build Leo's then I can't use the warrior to musketeer trick. Maybe not a big deal, but it illustrates the point.

All in all, I think I agree with the title of this thread. To build or not to build the GL, that is still the question.

Carolus

	31-12-2000 23:35									#12
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Oh, I forgot...

Happy New Civing Year, everybody!

Carolus

	02-01-2001 06:06									#13
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yes, da smokes builds the GL fo two reasons. one, it lets him reaserch one thing while two, more science based civs reaserch something elese, then they trade techs, then da smokes gets the tech too. two, it keeps the other civs from getting free advaces. in the ps1 version of civ2, i build cause i like the cinema that you get when you finish it.

	04-01-2001 03:55									#14
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I never build the GL. I am always ahead in tech and I only play Deity. The additional (and more useless) techs obtained from the AI via the Library simply slow down the scientific progress of a civ. Remember that the more techs you have, the more beakers it takes for your next advance. If you want to concentrate on military conquest, the best thing to do is to be #1 in tech and have your Dragoons vs. their Phalanxes. I agree with CR that in multiplayer the value of the GL is debatable. But in single player, the need for a Great Library is a clue that you need to better manage the trade arrows of your civ. I'd much rather focus on building the Colossus (Trade) or the Hanging Gardens (Happiness and faster early growth) or some much more useful wonder over the shield investment the GL requires. The additional trade from the Colossus, or the ability to grow quicky gaining trade arrows, increased trade bonuses, and scientists where needed give you all the science advantage you need.

	04-01-2001 05:48									#15
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I hate the GL!

Okay, that is too strong, but I would only build it in a situation like C-Rex brilliantly elucidated. (had to go to the library to look that word up)

The things I don't like about it are:

Timing - early in the game I want to control my tech tree route, especially those first 19 techs
Cost - those caravans will get you four of your own techs right away
Unreliable - Dumb AIs research stuff that is not necessary and they are too slow about it

	04-01-2001 06:42									#16
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Well said CR and Sten! Good to have you both around again.

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SG (2)

	04-01-2001 07:40									#17
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More aimless time killing brought me a kinda sorta "challenge".

Build only 1 wonder(The Library) as fast as you can and then set science to zero and see what happens.No government changes after Monarchy either.No city bribing.

Not real,real hard but different.

	04-01-2001 19:13									#18
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The GL in SP Deity, conquest, is only if you have a terrible start and get beaten to Isaac Newton. I had to resort to this once.

Otherwise, you should be in the lead in science and gold with a good science city and trade trade trade. I build the Colussus, which doesn't expire because you don't need flight.

I don't even bother with Cops Ob anymore. Those shields give me more science as trade caravans, and by the time I have artillery and cavalry, I don't need any more advances.

Multiplayer advantages as outlined by Carolus. Keep in mind also that only one player in MP can build Isaac Newton. If you don't get Ike, you should get the GL.

	04-01-2001 19:53									#19
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My only reason for building it is to stop the AI benefiting from it.
I used to rely on it to keep my up to speed with techs, but now I've developed a better strategy, I don't bother. I only build it now to piss others off, and then only if I don't have anything more pressing to build first.

	04-01-2001 20:04									#20
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The only times I've seen the AI really benefit from GL is when restarting civs are enabled. If you eliminate a civ under those circumstances, they have a 50% chance of restarting with any one of your techs. This gives that tech to the GL holder, who usually rushes to share it with his AI friends. The easy way to work around that is to capture, obsolete, or destroy the GL before you kill off any civs.

	08-01-2001 18:12									#21
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I'm another non library builder but I have used it a few times to try to recover from a bad start or early setbacks.

I seem to remember one game where I got something like 20 techs from the library in the space of five or six turns.

You have to be lucky with the timing though. If you are so far behind that it gets finished late the pace at which the other civs are researching has slowed down, on top of which several of the critical techs will have already been researched by everyone so the library will never provide those techs.

	09-01-2001 00:59									#22
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I don't build the Great Library because it slows my progress through the tech tree.

The Great Library is one of several key wonders available in the early game. Other key wonders available at about the same time include Colossus, Hanging Gardens, Great Wall, Pyramids, Marco Polo. At the higher levels, it's nearly impossible to build all of them so you have to prioritize the wonders. I generally prioritize Hanging Gardens and Colossus and try to build them in the same city. I also prioritize Pyramids. Taking into account your limited resources in the early game, the act of prioritizing certain wonders in effect causes you to surrender the other wonders to the AI.

In the early game my main wonder goals are (1) all wonders associated with a Super Science City - HG, Colossus, Copernicus, Isaac Newton, (2) Michaelangelo, and (3) Leonardo's Workshop. Not having the Great Library allows me to research the associated tech goals single-mindedly without having other techs slow my progress. If I accomplish my goals of a SSC and Michaelangelo, then I find, paradoxically, that not having the Great Library has actually sped up my research.

Of course, there are certain techs that are outside my streamlined tech tree that I find desirable. For example, I find Feudalism desirable because it enables me to build Sun Tzu. To obtain these techs, I build Marco Polo and try to obtain desired techs through trade offs. I can also find out which civilizations have certain desired techs and obtain them through conquest or theft.

My final argument in favor of not having the Great Library is that is allows you to play a more active role in managing your tech path. That is, instead of passively receiving certain techs, you become more involved in choosing which techs you want and when. Since this enhances gameplay, I feel that this in itself is justification for surrendering the Great Library to the AI.