09-01-2001 08:47									#1
	When to rushbuild, and when not? Support Apolyton, pre-order Civilization IV

Okay, for some time now, I've tended to rushbuild anything that was down to the last -20 gold, with occasional exceptions, such as when I had two units coming to that state, and I couldn't afford both of them, while still mainlining some sort of credit balance (say, over 100).

I'm curious about what more experienced players might do about this. Is rushbuilding, perhaps,. something that should be saved for very particular occasions?

In the last stages of the game, when I am pulling in large amounts of gold, I will often spend 200- 500 gold to rushbuild things, usually Spaceship parts.

And in the normal way of things, I am expecting responses from a wide spectrum of views, which I will then carefully assess and decide that most of them require too much micromanaging for an old crosk like me.

Thanks,

Jim W-

	09-01-2001 09:42									#2
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It depends


I go for 5 sheilds output first.Then:5 sheilds-buy warrior,5 sheilds-buy phanlanx,5 sheilds-buy archer etc.

Then 10 output-buy all but last row(incrementally)
Then 15 output-buy 20 sheild unit
Then 20 output-buy 30 sheild unit
Then 25 output=2 turn caravans.

Later,when gold is plentiful, I buy as needed.

	09-01-2001 16:54									#3
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Here are my personal do-not-rush-build rules:

1. It's wasted if you have enough shields to build it in that turn anyway (I used to be dumb enough to do this when not concentrating)

2. When you are rushing the only defensive unit in a city and the barbs/enemy are one turn away (because they will take the city "before" your unit is built)

3. Avoid rushing units and caravans if at all possible

I always rush factories, man plants, pollution preventers, universities, sewers; because they are too valuable to wait for. Happy to spend 200-300 doing this.

I also will rush aqueducts, colliseums and temples if the city is celebrating or would be celebrating.

	09-01-2001 17:22									#4
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The flip side of rushbuilding to fill the box is that any shields produced by that city on the next turn will be wasted. So it's a good idea to move your workers for one turn to emphasize trade or food at the expense of shields.

	09-01-2001 20:04									#5
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Dave,
...so true (that's why it is such a bore micromanaging 30 or 50 cities).

Jim W
Rule #1: Avoid rushbuilding anything with no shields in the box ( wonders and improvements are twice cheaper if you rushbuild with 1 shield in the box).
Rule #2: Preferably rushbuild units stepwise (along with Smash's advice).
Rule #3: We say in french: "l'argent est le nerf de la guerre". This means in particular that a strong treasury:
a) protects you against low cost bribery
b) allows you to invest briskly (IMO the credit balance of 100g that you mention is OK only long BC).

	09-01-2001 20:53									#6
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Post 5

Cost of 1 shield (my eperience only):
unit: 2+({residual shield cost}/20)
improvement: 2
WoW: 4

Doubled if shield stock is empty.

Note: I think "residual shield cost" is rounded up to multiple of 10 (I am not sure).
[This message has been edited by SlowThinker (edited January 10, 2001).]

	09-01-2001 21:36									#7
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[quote]Originally posted by Fergus Horkan on 01-09-2001 06:54 AM
Here are my personal do-not-rush-build rules:

1. It's wasted if you have enough shields to build it in that turn anyway (I used to be dumb enough to do this when not concentrating)

2. When you are rushing the only defensive unit in a city and the barbs/enemy are one turn away (because they will take the city "before" your unit is built)

3. Avoid rushing units and caravans if at all possible


So I ought not to be rush-building anything but wonders or buildings? (Subject to special circumstances, of course.)

Jim W

	09-01-2001 23:23									#8
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Other times to rush buy:

1) A cheap unit needed to reinstitute order via martial law. You can usually wait a turn though.

2) SDI - 'nuff said.

3) City Walls after you take a city and expect a counter attack on the next turn.

4) Wonders, especially in a race and most especially when you get that most horrid of messages "The Romans have nearly completed their great project: Michaelangelo's Chapel". Even if you do have enough production to finish the wonder on the next turn, go ahead and buy anyway when you get "nearly completed". There's a "cheat" that always lets the human player get the wonder if it is rush-bought.


[This message has been edited by Sieve Too (edited January 09, 2001).]

	10-01-2001 12:11									#11
	Got spare money?

Since the cost of buying an improvement is two gold per shield, and any shields you would be adding that turn are wasted, it's slightly more efficient to buy improvements as soon as you have any shields in the box. That way you get to spread the wasted shields out over a bigger purchase. Waiting until it's almost built is less efficient.

As noted, gold in your bank increases the cost of bribing your cities and units. Don't let your treasury drop below a thousand or so (in the AD period, anyway) unless you've got a pretty urgent reason.

As Slowthinker notes, improvements are cheap to buy, Wonders are expensive, and units vary in between. Therefore, I buy almost exclusively improvements and save my shields for units. I mostly build Wonders from caravans, but if I don't have enough of them, it can be well worth the money not only to beat someone else to it, but simply to have it sooner. Adam Smith, for example, pays for itself pretty darn fast if you have very many cities, and it's worth the extra cost to get it right away. Hoover Dam, happiness wonders, Leonardo -- just consider the payoff versus the extra cost.

I've never derived Slowthinker's formula for the cost of rush-buying units, but it is clear that (unlike improvements) units are cheaper to buy (on a per-shield basis) when they're nearly done. The methodology described by Smash is very helpful. When you can, arrange to have each city produce a multiple of five shields. Rush-buy as needed to get to a unit that's ten shields less than what you really want, and then let the city produce the last ten, so that no shields are wasted. If you can't produce a multiple of five, you can still buy units pretty cheaply by the stepwise method, but it can take kind of a lot of work.

My game usually focuses on WLT_D. I keep luxuries as low as possible much of the time and then crank 'em up enough so that everybody can celebrate for awhile, and I spend most of my money buying whatever improvement a city needs in order to grow: harbor-aqueduct-sewers, contentment improvements, and market-bank-stocks.

	10-01-2001 12:41									#12
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Sorry, there was a mistake in my formula(Post 5):
Cost of 1 shield for a unit is 2+({residual shield cost}/20), not shield cost of full unit.

	11-01-2001 05:28									#14
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donwebb - are you familiar with using organized "We Love The President Day" celebrations to quickly increase population? By cranking up Luxuries periodically you can have a bunch of cities celebrate to their food maximum, then back off Luxuries to minimal levels until you get some additional square irrigated/supermarkets built. Repeat process every 15-20 turns.


On rushbuilding, I try to round off production early to avoid losing shield production - say, if a city had been running 3 shields and it grows to producing 5 shields with 12 in the box for a new settler; I will then rush phalanx & archer then switch to settler and let the city produce the last 10 shields.

Also I will rush those early warriors after the first turn so I can use trade squares vs shield production and stay happy.

	11-01-2001 12:10									#15
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I'm no kind of micromanager, so I only rushbuild in an emergency -- when I need a defensive unit or improvement during a seige, when I need a happiness unit during a revolt, or when someone's about to beat me to a wonder I want. But lately I've been experimenting with rushbuiling factories as soon as they become available. As soon as I get industrialization, I go into any city that's building an improvement and change the improvement to a factory; then I buy as many as I can, buying the rest on subsequesnt turns. I haven't done the math, but it seems like getting extra shields sooner would pay fo itself pretty quickly. Anybody else do that?

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Dig trenches, with our men being killed off like flies? There isn't time to dig trenches. We'll have to buy them ready made. Here, run out and get some trenches.
-- Rufus T. Firefly, the original rush-builder

	11-01-2001 14:04									#18
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Usually it is not wise to rush build a factory without Hoover Dam.
You spend about 400 gold for rushing a factory. The return is +50% city production - 4 gold per turn (without powerplant). At a production of 10 shields, the return will be about 5*2 - 4 gold = 6 gold. I am quite certain that the 400 gold spending on freight has a much better return.
Of course, if you have too much gold on hand, rush-building factory is a viable solution.

	11-01-2001 15:46									#19
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Just a quick note:
No-one has yet mentioned the fact that since units are cheaper than wonders (5::8 in fact) rushing a bunch of caravans is the most efficient way of speed building a Wonder, set 4/6/8 cities building caravans - put first shields in the box then rush Warrior (<25), Phalanx, Diplo, Settler, Caravan (25g each) total cost two turns and less than 125g - move into Wonder city for 50 shields (200g) each - three turn Wonder!
Also a good reason to avoid early Feudalism - it really wrecks your rush building.


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____________
Scouse Git[1]

"CARTAGO DELENDA EST" - Cato the Censor
"The Great Library must be built!"
"A short cut has to be challenging,
were it not so it would be 'the way'." - Paul Craven

	11-01-2001 21:38									#21
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Donwebb,
1) I think Sten is advocating something close to what I tried to demonstrate with my "3 arrows" strategy: many people have a strong tendency to think very much in terms of shields at the beginning of the game. If you use your money wisely (for example partly rushbuild warriors instead of building them slowly with your small shield production), then martial law makes your people happy and you can concentrate on trade rich areas (more trade arrows, then more science and more gold).
(also read Xin Yu's size five for that purpose).
2) I strongly agree with Chow Yub Fat: factories are great, but not ASAP (don't forget pollution either, if you build them before HD).
SG
Seems at least YOU agree with my calculations. I salute you.

------------------
aux bords mystérieux du monde occidental

	11-01-2001 23:54									#22
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Rush building decisions take on greater import in the early and middle game. By the end game, your coffers should be overflowing and you should be spending your money anyway. Since factories and space ship parts are built in the end game (in most cases) I will rush-build them at my pleasure -- I can afford to do that because since the game is in hand, the negative consequences are few.

In the early and middle game, rush-build decisions are premised on whether the benefit I receive from having a unit, building, or wonder several turns early is worth the cost.

For example, I find that at Deity level, Hanging Gardens and Michealangelo provide such immediate and far-reaching benefits that I will rush-build them as soon as they are within striking distance.

Another example is whether I should rush-build a temple in a city in chaos. If I find that the benefits of having a productive city outweigh the costs, then I will rush-build a temple. If not, then I will consider other means of keeping the citizens happy.
[This message has been edited by Everyman (edited January 11, 2001).]

	12-01-2001 05:15									#23
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rushbuild a unit if:
1.an enmy unit is two turns away
2. your rich and don't want to wait for a really expensive unit (armor, nuke, battleship, etc.)
rushbuild an improvement when:
it is absolutlynecesary (city in civil disorder, buy a temple).
Rushbuild wonders if it is very important to your stategy and the ai is going to beat you to it

in general, rushbuild factories, manufacturing plants, and power plants in cities with 5 or ,or prtoduction in a cize 3 city or bigger.

	12-01-2001 10:23									#24
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The decision to "rush " build should be aided by decisions made when determining your city placement. I use the 5 factor or 10 factor principle. I space my citys so that they can get up to 10 resource production or at worse 5. Then for maximum efficency useing level buying meaning if you want to build a settler and have 10 resource production, buy an archer or a diplomat or explorer (30 resources) then switch to a settler. You must really explore your need to complete the unit with total gold and they must be overwhelming to do it.

	12-01-2001 15:04									#25
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La Fayette, Merci Monsieur - but what's to disagree with? A sound strategy deserves support.
Just a note on Treasury - in my games I count myself lucky if I have much more than 100g in the coffers before SoL & Fundy!!!!
Yes this makes you vulnerable, just don't let them diplos get near!


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____________
Scouse Git[1]

"CARTAGO DELENDA EST" - Cato the Censor
"The Great Library must be built!"
"A short cut has to be challenging,
were it not so it would be 'the way'." - Paul Craven

	13-01-2001 00:32									#26
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In the early game I like to buy improvements as soon as possible so I can get back to producing carvans, settlers whatever. If I'm short of cash that might mean
going for a cheaper building and then switching production (nice not to waste those shields too ). Always try and keep back 50-100g for Barb bribing.

"Perhaps we should adjust the tax rate, sire." , sigh!

Usually don't have to worry about being bribed, tend to be at peace/allied with everyone at this stage.

Later on, I buy factories if allows a city to produce 20+ shields (25 is better) before Hoover's. After Hoover's the credit cards out for all the larger cities. Sometimes rush-build supermarkets in smaller cities to grow them more quickly (esp if not in Demo), if I'm not very far ahead of the AI.

Rush build man. plants to get over 70 shields. Howitzer every turn from a few cities can soon bring the AI to its knees .

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	13-01-2001 01:13									#27
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There is always a tradeoff to consider when rush buying, but too much analysis will detract from the game (fun), so I use some guidelines. For factories, I'm willing to spend up to 200 gold on the buy, and more if I have lots of gold and can buy every factory. I don't like buying at two turns away, because only one turn is saved - the cost for saving one turn is usually more than I'm comfortable with.

Caravans that are used for trade are not good buy candidates, it takes away from the profit. Caravans built for wonders are good candidates, but only if I'm being pressed by another civ.

You guys have some good rules. Thanks, I'll try some of them.

	27-08-2002 01:07									#28
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quote: Originally posted by SlowThinker (post 5) Cost of 1 shield (my eperience only): unit: 2+({residual shield cost}/20)

So the full cost (cost of all the shields) is
2*{residual shield cost} + {residual shield cost}^2 / 20
(the result is rounded down)

Edit: residual shield cost - I mean the number of shields to be bought
Edit: error in the formula

	27-08-2002 01:20									#29
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double post

	27-08-2002 02:29									#30
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The cost for buying n shields of production in unit is
n(n+40)/20, rounded down. Double if there is zero shields accrued.