11-08-2001 01:23									#1
	GAMEKILLER! = Only 16 Civs + No Ability to ADD CUSTOM CIVS to playable mix Support Apolyton, buy Galactic Civilizations: Deluxe Edition

The FATAL flaw in Civ III's design is revealed in this screen shot:

http://www.civ3.com/images/screenshots/playersetup.jpg

Check out the "Your Civ" selection window in the "Player Set Up" screen.

What you will see is:

1) ONLY 16 built-in Civs, cut back from the 21 built-in Civs in Civ II. GONE are the CELTS, the SPANISH, the JAPANESE, the CARTHAGENIANS, and the MONGOLS. This would be barely tolerable ONLY IF we were also given the means to ADD CUSTOM CIVS to the playable mix in a standard, random map game. But, as you can see...

2) The "Your Civ" selector is the same rigid, inflexable, locked-in BUTTON TOGGLE that we had in Civ II. This means that WE CANNOT ADD OUR OWN CUSTOM CIVS to the playable mix in a standard, random map game. At best, it will be like Civ II, where CUSTOM CIVS were consigned to the SCENARIO GHETTO and could only be played with a fixed, non-random map OR CUSTOM CIVS replaced and eliminated already built-in Civs, making problematic multiplayer play and forcing an ugly zero sum game. Since in Civ III, we have even fewer built-in Civs to begin with, this is simply UNACCEPTABLE!

So, unless FIRAXIS changes this, millions of Civ Players will not be able to play a standard, random map game with and against the Civs of their choice and the fun of Civ III will be greatly and unnecessarily diminished.

I have read many complaints posted on this board. Hispanic Civers are incensed at the fact that the SPANISH are gone. Scottish, Irish, and Welsh Civers lament the loss of the CELTS. But, also, there are Civers the world over who would greatly enjoy and appreciate being able to ADD CUSTOM CIVS OF THEIR OWN CHOOSING to play with and against. All the belly-aching and disappointment about which built-in Civs are included and how many are included would be alieviated by ALLOWING US ALL TO ADD CUSTOM CIVS TO THE PLAYABLE MIX IN THE STANDARD, RANDOM MAP GAME!

Firaxis, what say you? Why haven't you done this? Can you still do it? Or will we have to wait for Civ IV for THIS BASIC ADVANCE IN CIV II's POOR GAME DESIGN?

I do hope you will address this IMPORTANT issue. Frankly, the appeal of your new version will be greatly diminished for millions of Civers if this FATAL FLAW in Civ III's design is not fixed. It's been 10 years since Civ II. This flaw in Civ II was forgivable. To have it continue into the next iteration 10 years later is UNACCEPTABLE!

I don't want a Civ III that I cannot fully customize. And I'm not talking only about SCENARIOS. I want the ability to ADD CUSTOM CIVS TO THE PLAYABLE MIX IN A STANDARD, RANDOM MAP GAME! This is even more critical now that the number of built-in Civs has been CUT BACK to ONLY 16.

Can you do it? Is there still time? Or will be have to wait for Civ IV?

	11-08-2001 01:34									#3
	Suffering from ads?

Please stop being stupid.

There's an editor.

	11-08-2001 01:37									#4
	Increase the size of your Attachments

I think that ALL the CIVS SHOULD TYPE WITH CAPSLOCK DOWN! I cannot BELIEVE YOU, FIRAXIS would let down us fans of LONG, POINTLESS RANTS IN CAPITAL LETTERS!

	11-08-2001 01:49									#5
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quote: Originally posted by Sparky Please stop being stupid. There's an editor.

I'm not being stupid. Yes, there is an editor. But, apparently, it is not integrated with the standard, random map game.

It appears to be like it was in Civ II, where you could customize Civ's in a SCENARIO. But, the big problem with that was SCENARIO's required a fixed, pre-determined, NON-RANDOM MAP!

I want to be able to ADD CUSTOM CIVS to the playable mix in a standard, RANDOM MAP game!

See the difference?

	11-08-2001 01:57									#6
	Support Apolyton, buy Galactic Civilizations: Deluxe Edition

Stop being stupid.

quote: 1) ONLY 16 built-in Civs, cut back from the 21 built-in Civs in Civ II.

They have exchanged quantity for quality. CUS's, leaders change trough time, etc.

quote: I don't want a Civ III that I cannot fully customize.

You have apparently tested the new editor? I'm pretty sure you can easily swap the choosable civs from there.

	11-08-2001 02:19									#7
	Lose 30 kilos (of popups)

Ok, stupid, obviously you don't have a clue that a rules.txt file looks like and how they can be customized. Here's one I have handy that shows the Leaders portion:

;
; Leaders
;
; leader, female, color, style, plural, adjective, ...
; ...attack, expand, civilize, ...
; ...govt, male, female...
;
; female: 0 = male 1 = female
;
; color: Color set (1 - 7)
; style: City style (0 - 3)
; 0 = Bronze Age
; 1 = Classical
; 2 = Far East
; 3 = Medieval
;
; attack: 1 = aggressive -1 = rational
; expand: 1 = expansionist -1 = perfectionist
; civilize: 1 = civilized -1 = militaristic
;
; govt = government type for name replacement (0 = Anarchy, 6 = Democracy)
;
; male, female = titles for leader of government
;
@LEADERS
Caesar, Livia, 0, 1, 1, Romans, Roman, 0, 1, 1, 1, Dictator, Dictator, 2, Imperator, Imperatrix
Hammurabi, Ishtari, 0, 2, 0, Babylonians, Babylonian, -1, -1, 1,
Frederick, Maria Theresa, 0, 3, 3, Germans, German, 1, -1, 1, 4, Archbishop, Archbishop, 6, Chancellor, Chancellor
Ramesses, Cleopatra, 1, 4, 0, Egyptians, Egyptian, 0, 0, 1, 1, Pharaoh, Pharaoh, 2, Great Pharaoh, Great Pharaoh
Abe Lincoln, E. Roosevelt, 0, 5, 1, Americans, American, -1, 0, 1, 4, Reverend, Reverend, 5, Speaker, Speaker
Alexander, Hippolyta, 1, 6, 1, Greeks, Greek, 0, 1, -1, 6, Prime Minister, Prime Minister
Mohandas Gandhi,Indira Gandhi, 0, 7, 2, Indians, Indian, -1, -1, 0, 2, Maharaja, Maharaja,
Lenin, Catherine the Great, 1, 1, 3, Russians, Russian, 1, 0, -1, 2, Czar, Czarina, 4, Patriarch, Matriarch
Shaka, Shakala, 0, 2, 0, Zulus, Zulu, 1, 0, 0,
Louis XIV, Joan of Arc, 0, 3, 3, French, French, 1, 1, 1, 4, Archbishop, Archbishop, 6, Premier, Premier
Montezuma, Nazca, 0, 4, 0, Aztecs, Aztec, 0, -1, 1,
Mao Tse Tung, Wu Zhao, 0, 5, 2, Chinese, Chinese, 0, 0, 1, 3, Chairman, Chairperson
Henry VIII, Elizabeth I, 1, 6, 3, English, English, 0, 1, 0, 4, Lord Protector, Lady Protector, 6, Prime Minister, Prime Minister
Genghis Khan, Bortei, 0, 7, 0, Mongols, Mongol, 1, 1, -1,
Cunobelin, Boadicea, 1, 1, 0, Celts, Celtic, -1, 1, 0, 4, Druid, Druid
Tokugawa, Amaterasu, 0, 2, 2, Japanese, Japanese, 1, -1, -1, 2, Shogun, Shogun, 6, Prime Minister, Prime Minister
Canute, Gunnhild, 1, 3, 3, Vikings, Viking, 1, 1, 0, 1, Warlord, Warlord
Philip II, Isabella, 1, 4, 3, Spanish, Spanish, -1, 1, -1, 4, Archbishop, Archbishop
Xerxes, Scheherezade, 0, 5, 0, Persians, Persian, 0, -1, 0, 2, Shah, Shah, 4, Ayatollah, Ayatollah
Hannibal, Dido, 0, 6, 1, Carthaginians, Carthaginian, 0, 0, -1,
Sitting Bull, Sacajawea, 0, 7, 0, Sioux, Sioux, 0, 0, 0, 1, Chief, Chief, 2, Great Chief, Great Chief

Saladin, ..., 0, 5, Arabs, Arab, 1, 0, 1, 4, Ayatollah, Ayatollah, 2, Sultan, Sultana
Atawallpa, ..., 0, 1, Incas, Inca, -1, 1, 1,

We now know that there will many more attributes added for each, so again, stop being stupid.

	11-08-2001 02:20									#8
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If you cannot edit in custom Civs, then why is it that I've seen Bro. Blunto of the Deltas twice with two different people?


Also, Japan is in dumbass. Read over the entire thing first.

	11-08-2001 02:21									#9
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quote: Originally posted by uncle_funk Stop being stupid. They have exchanged quantity for quality. CUS's, leaders change trough time, etc.

THIS is QUALITY? I call that superfluous non-essential-to-my-enjoyment FLUFF! I could care less about the leader pics. Leader pics are NOTHING compared to the ABILITY TO CUSTOMIZE MY PLAYABLE CIVS IN A STANDARD, RANDOM MAP GAME! I'd be happy to settle for generic leader pics or even a non-pic graphic which simply conveyed to me his/her present state of mind if I could customize my playable civs in a random map game,

quote: You have apparently tested the new editor? I'm pretty sure you can easily swap the choosable civs from there.

I don't want to SWAP! I want to ADD TO! That's the whole point. And if the editor does permit that, I wish FIRAXIS would make it clear that it does. But, until then, I will rant on because if Civ III does, in fact, lack the ability to ADD CUSTOM CIVS TO THE PLAYABLE MIX IN THE STANDARD, RANDOM MAP GAME, it's a game-killer for me and I'm sure I'm not alone.

	11-08-2001 02:21									#10
	Support Apolyton, buy Civilization 2

while i agree with you arator, i dont see the point in making a thread on the same issue on the same day.....