11-08-2001 03:20									#1
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It seems something has to be done to kick some life back into GGS once in a while.

Because the way things are going now isn't good.

And I know everybody are buissy. But come on, guys. Surely you must have the time to just post at the forum once in a while. This, however, is not being done. And although I don't know this for sure (since the communication between group members is as low as ever) I don't expect the programming aspects of the project forwarding at any faster pace. Of cause this lack of activity is more the case for some people than for others. But I think we should look at this problem together, and see what can be done.

Primarily we should arrange an official meeting some time soon. I suggest monday evening/night. Please, anybody who can make it, meet at the usual place (#GGS @ Undernet) around 1900 GMT.

But I think I may have an idea why activity is so low at the moment. Of cause it could be due to lack of interest. And that might be true in a few cases, but from what I know of you guys I don't think that's it. In stead I think it has something to do with the fact that putting yourself to work can sometimes be hard. When you don't really know what to do you often end up doing nothing. I think so because I recognize it from myself. Sometimes you are just not really sure what needs doing, and you just browse the boards, perhabs write a short, unimportant post and then leave. And that, my friends, is not all that productive.

I don't expect that I can solve this on my own. But perhabs this can be of a bit help. And I don't at all mean to be bossy or anything. This is an open source project, which means that anybody can do the amount of work they want. But I believe that if everybody knew what was their field they might be able to do some more productive work, simply because it is much easier to work on something when you have a pretty clear idea what "that" is.

So I present the following division of labour in the project:

Darkstar: Find out what you can about the map - whether a spherical map is possible or not.

Chris and VetLegion: You continue to program the UI.

Amjayee and Leland: You start programming some basic game algorithms, like handling tiles or defining regions.

Elmo: You develop the graphics required. Make some more UI graphics like the stuff you have already made, just more menus and buttons etc. And some tile graphics would be great, too. Apart from that help out in the overall design.

Mark and myself: We continue working on the production/econ model. Mark will program the stuff so it can be tested along the way. Mark can also assist Darkstar with the map.

Heardie, Guildmaster, Korn, Cavebear, S. Kroeze and Nath: Help out with what you can. If you are interested in an "official" task just contact us!

Now I do not mean this as a settled division of labour in any way. Like always everybody should participate in as much as and whatever they want. And I don't mean people should feel forced to do anything. Of cause I don't. I just think that in stead of having next to zero progress it might be good if people had an idea of what they should do when they feel like working on GGS. And I know that when you have a concrete problem in front of you the desire to work is much much higher than when you have to figure out what to work on.

So please, join me in this attempt to put GGS back to life.

	13-08-2001 02:16									#2
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Um, you don't count on me to program anything - I know very little about programming since I can't afford a teacher, and I've hated C++'s guts ever since I started learning it
But we'll write the algorithms alright.

Be well.

	13-08-2001 02:39									#3
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Ok.

We will make the algorithms together.

	13-08-2001 23:44									#4
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Come on, guys! Is Mark really the only one that wants to reply to this?

Please, if you think I am being a total jerk saying this then tell me, either here or by email. Anything!

	14-08-2001 01:59									#5
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Sorry for not replying, it's not because I haven't wanted to, but rather because I haven't been on the net for about 5 days, actually I have been hardly at home. Also now it's almost midnight, but I will make a short reply and come back hopefully tomorrow. It's perfectly ok to try and kick us around a bit. We haven't been very active. I personally have thought about the event system and threads, but still haven't made the test program I have spoken about, hopefully will do it this week. Then we might finally get the program framework up.

I think we should decide about the map soon, and make some kind of map shortly after that. The early map should of course use the same system as the final one. The 3d map can be done, I'm sure. Personally, I would be very interested in making it. But, as you hopefully realize, it will take quite a lot of time, and we would need to design it well to make it work. But it can be done. It's just about whether we want a fancy, innovative map, or a more conservative one faster. For me it doesn't matter really, I'm in no serious hurry.

I really can't promise to be more active this week, I will propably be busy with other affairs... but I will see what I can do. I have certainly not lost interest, but it's difficult to find time. For me, it's not because of the lack of things to do, I have plenty. It's just that time is not very abundantly available right now.

	14-08-2001 18:45									#6
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Thanks for the reply, Amjayee.

I understand that you are buissy. And like I said that is completely ok. It just makes progress slow, so I hope that when things become a little less tense activity will rise.

Map:
You are propably right. The problem as I see it is that we as of yet are still not sure what kind of map we can make. A simple, classic hex/square tiled map is pretty easy done, and I would have no objection to that (on the contrary, actually, since that would allow us to start making an actual game sooner). But I still think that a tileless map would be cooler to have in the longer run.

So is it possible to change map in middevelopment? If so then I suggest we put together a simple hex (or square - since tiles wont have much ingame importance I think we might as well pick the type that is easiest to make, which seems to be squares) map and start programming it, so we can move on.

	14-08-2001 19:07									#7
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quote: So is it possible to change map in middevelopment? If so then I suggest we put together a simple hex (or square - since tiles wont have much ingame importance I think we might as well pick the type that is easiest to make, which seems to be squares) map and start programming it, so we can move on.

I would suggest that is a really bad idea, Joker. The kind of map you make is going to have huge ramifications on the rest of the program. Almost every aspect of the game you are creating is going to be affected. The further you get into programming the game, the more difficult it would be to change. I would strongly recommend you decide the type of map first, then work from there. At the very least, decide on tile-less versus tiles, and whether or not you're going to use a sphere or a flat map. You might get away with changing the tile type (square, diamond, hex) mid-development (should you decide to go with a flat tiled map), but even then, you'll be surprised at the domino effect it will have on the rest of the code. Changing from tiles to tile-less, or from flat to spherical will become nearly impossible beyond a certain point of development, I think.

You probably don't want to hear my opinion, but I don't want to see you guys do a bunch of programming only to have to rip it all back out again because the type of map you are using has changed. That''s exactly what happened to MD, and I wouldn't wish that nightmare on anyone else

Ron

	14-08-2001 19:27									#8
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Well, most of the actual work right now seems to be on the GUI and on the econ model, so it's relatively possible to do some work now. but i think that serious research has to begin now on the subject of maps, and I'm keeping myself and Joker off all the map-dependent stuff on the models.

	15-08-2001 20:00									#9
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I have been thinking about the map. I will expose my ideas in the 3d map thread, since I thought it would be more appropriate there. I will also comment the recent posts there.

Basically, I think Ron is right. But also, it would be nice to have something to show. Read my thoughts in the other thread.

	16-08-2001 11:59									#10
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I guess you are right, Ron. So we have to decide now.

In that case I, well ... I am still not sure. I think an old school, hex or square/diamond map would do just fine since graphics is not something that should have huge importance in the game. Granted, I think a spherical map would be incredible, and it would certainly give us some PR. But if it is at the cost of occupying all our programmers for a year without any other programming advancement then I think that it would come with too high a price.

	17-08-2001 00:15									#11
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If the advantages of a spherical map were only in the graphics I wouldn't want it so much...
But hexes/squares are really stupid abstractions.

	17-08-2001 03:57									#12
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Hey guys!

I'm finally back from my holiday! After relaxed weeks it's back to work for me.

I'm currently going though all the e-mails I got and the posts made on the forum. I have already seen we (might) have some new team members! I even spoke to Mark already! That's absolutely great. It's cool too that Joker finally has time to work on the project again and I saw it already worked out, since more and more work is done.
I also read the mail of course from Joker, in which he tried to make us enthousiastic for ggs again. I really support his idea.

I blame myself too not working on ggs (before I got on vacation of course). I will try to contribute more to ggs.
Altough, it's really hard for me.
I work 6 days a week now, which takes about 9 hours per day for me. Then I need to eat and sleep some to (yeah, I'm a human being to ). Plus that I am really tired after work so I want to relax sometimes to.
To be short, I REALLY want to increase my efforts, but it's just really hard for me.

Now the better news: I saw the graphics Mark made and I was overwhelmed. I won't go into detail in this post though, I'll continue in the 'Opening screen'-post. I also saw Amjayee did some map stuff and Darkstar still is with us (or at least he is still willing to help us out with the map programming).

When I am finished reading the posts made this weeks, I can and will continue posting and you can expect some comments. For now: keep up the good work, I still beleave we are someday going to release a kick-ass game!

With friendly greetings,
Elmo

	17-08-2001 14:26									#13
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Great to see you back, Elmo. I hope you had a nice vacation.

And of cause I understand that you are buissy. Do you have 9 hours of work 6 days a week ON TOP of college??? If so then I am impressed that you are even able to post.

Good to see some activity again.

	18-08-2001 15:37									#14
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Whew! No, that would be impossible I guess! No, my college starts about 3 weeks from now, so I will have more time then. Now I'm working my ass off to earn some money for my next year (and my driver's licence ).

Elmo

	18-08-2001 15:58									#15
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BTW, did you have any meetings this 2 weeks? Or are the ones on the website the last ever?
IF there are held any meetings, could you mail them to me? thnx!

Elmo

	20-08-2001 00:46									#16
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Ah, ok. I thought it sounded a little extreme.

We didn't have any official meetings thes two weeks, although we did have a few unofficial 2 person meetings once in a while (when people met on ICQ).

However, I would like to have a meeting sometime soon. Anyone interested in finding a time where the most people can make it?

Apart from that we might just as well bring back our old set weekly meeting dates. Then people could just show up if they were available. What day of the week suits you guys best?

	20-08-2001 13:13									#17
	Put an end to popups!

Nononono!

The project is not dead. Its summer and all, it is understandable that activity is pretty low. Although it is winter some places of the earth, most of us here are from Europe.

I would not say it is lack of interest here, it is other priorities. I just got back from seaside yesterday - and still I dont promise heaps of activity. I have some things to do, and right now I am not very eager to be sitting in my hot room, working on a computer (while the computer just heats the room up more ). I ll probably be available for a not-very-brain-consuming activities like chat later in the evenings. To be totally unspecific - I am here but what I will do about GGS I dont know

The nature of the project is such that no deadlines are going to speed it up, and no "posting for the sake of posting" will make it active.
I feel that it is better that people work at their conveniance, when they are "inspired" so to speak, then to make deadlines or equaly bad - to run over same topics over and over again.

Different people have different activity patterns, that is how it is. I think if everyone just contributes what they can we ll do ok.

	20-08-2001 17:45									#18
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Did you have a good stay at the seaside, Vet? Welcome back!

Obviously you are right that the great weather that we experience a lot of around this time each year does decrease activity, since it is just better to be outside than sitting in front of your computer.

And I agree that deadlines are a purely bad thing. But deadlines were not what I suggested. I only suggested an unofficial partition of labour. So if someone couldn't really figure out what to do on the project this could help them. It was never intended as anything more.

	20-08-2001 18:54									#19
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Welcome back, Elmo and Vet; I wish you both had nice vacations. I agree with Vet that it's just like that, people do (or don't do) things as they find time. I'm certain we will start being a little more active soon. Personally, I have less than two weeks of work left, then my school begins, and then I might perhaps have more time and enthusiasm to do some coding. Somehow programming for money eight hours per day reduces your enthusiasm to program on free time. And, of course the nice summer we have had here (one of the best for ages) has caused the fact that I have spent more time on the beach than programming ggs. But well, winter is usually so bad I'm certain I will prefer coding to being outside.

I will personally start activating myself more, I'm certain we will have great achievements this autumn.

	08-09-2001 15:32									#20
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Come on! We are falling far behind again! I know you regularry browse these boards to see if someone has posted a new topic. And never replies... That not how we can improve things!

My computer was totally broken down some days and I see nothing actually happen since. I myself are not that active too, but we have to continue working. You can expect some new things from mee next week.

So start replying! Or am I wrong and have you programmed a fully working sperical map yet? I have you prove me wrong...

Elmo

	09-09-2001 17:42									#21
	Suffering from ads?

Tough words, Elmo.

And yet I agree with you. We have to work on this, or it will never get off the ground.

Right now people who used to be really active are anything but that. How come?

	10-09-2001 13:43									#22
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I know these are tough words. But I feel like everybody wants to put some effort into ggs, yet nobody really does. Aperently, we all want to wait untill someone comes up with some good stuff, instead of taking the first instep.

I DO NOT BLAME ANYONE! This is totally on a voluteer basis, but I think this is not at all where we want to see ggs end. Am I not right?

B.t.w. I wa trying to make a new vesion of the Military/Combat Model (now version 0.1), but we seem to have pretty different opinions here. More about that later.

Sorry if it looked like I blame anyone of the team. I'd never do that.

Elmo

	19-09-2001 15:37									#23
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Perhaps there should be a minimum number of posts per week or something.

	19-09-2001 17:41									#24
	Inflate your Upload Space

I don't think that would be a very good idea. People decide their own level of involvement.

Right now we are in the sad position that everybody are pretty much waiting for someone else to present something great, which will start the process again.

But I am learning about economics every day, and I will make a new econ model when I feel I have learned "enough" to do so - some time this fall.

And as far as I know Amjayee is creating a 3D map right at this very moment. Of cause this will take some time. And I am afraid he is not recieving much help (am I wrong here?).

But when he does present something (anything) it should spark people's interest once more, and the members should gather.

Untill then I am afraid we will have to live with this little activity.

Of cause we, who are somewhat active (I do visit the boards several times a week, and post if there is something interesting, although I admit that I have not created any discussion lately) could do something about this.

The Design Doc still needs updating, and the sections in it needs to be elaborated. Doing so, and posting it on the boards should indeed create some activity.

	19-09-2001 23:07									#25
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Yes I do still exist

Sorry for my complete lack of activity for months, time just seems to have escaped me for a while. I'm still reading the boards at least 3 or 4 times a week - so I'm pretty up-to-date with what's happening.

Hopefully I can find the time to contribute some more in the coming months, maybe even do some programming, maybe

Are the meetings still happening? I'll try and make the next one if they're still on Sundays?

	19-09-2001 23:39									#26
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You are all right. We all browse the board pretty often, but don't have anything developed now, apart from the spherical map.

Guess we all have lost some interest in ggs, not that we want to forget about it, be we all seem to put ggs lower on priority.

I just hope I have more time and will to do some ggd work too. I can't really get myself working tough, which is not very promising.

See you later,
Elmo

	20-09-2001 10:28									#27
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Yes, I have been working with the map, and no, I haven't had any help, though at this point it would be difficult for anyone to help. I'm not making very good progress, I have had trouble arranging my school things and have been a little frustrated for the lack of time, but I hope next week things will be settled. Also I check at the boards regularly, but haven't had anything to write.

	20-09-2001 21:52									#28
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I think you are right.

We have not lost interest in GGS. We have just put it on lower priority. Which, of cause, is ok. It is just sad that we have all done so simultaneously.

I guess I do have time to contribute more than I do.

But the thing is that I don't really know what to do at this point. As I have said economy will wait untill later. What else is there? I could update and elaborate on the Design Doc, but there is a limit to how much I can do about that without anything else happening. I would really like to help Amjayee with the map, if there is anything design related that I can do (I can settle on some map characteristics for once).

Otherwise I am just not sure what there is for me to do. I can't program (at least nothing useful), and I am not at all any good at drawing stuff. I just design.

Put me to work, if you can! Please!

And I think a similar situation exists for some of you as well. Like you say, we all browse the boards, but mostly do not reply. Why not use that time (it can easily take 20 minutes, if you visit the OT as well) for something constructive in stead?

Like I said, what I think we lack is a plan.

	20-09-2001 22:05									#29
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I guess Joker is right here, there are many design issues in the map etc. systems that need to be done, and that can be done by others. Perhaps as my next ggs job, I will make some preliminary specs for the map system I intend to make; then you others can issue the design things and get somethings sensible to do.

	21-09-2001 16:28									#30
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I think that would be great, amjayee. If we get some design stuff done we (Elmo?) can start drawing some map graphics as well.

It would be a good way to put some life back into the project.