11-08-2001 05:50									#1
	Is the Graphics Tail Wagging the Game Playability Dog in Civ 3's Design? Tired of ads?

After perusing all the info at the new Civ3.com and the posts here at Apolyton, I am very concerned that fundamental improvements in game play have been sacrificed for the sake of amazing, but ultimately superfluous, graphics. The prime example, I think, is:

Leader Graphics vs. Civ Variety and Customizability

It seems that Firaxis has devoted a great deal of its redesign effort to creating AMAZING LEADER GRAPHICS. These leader graphics not only morph to reveal a leader's every "emotion" but they even "age" as time goes by.

Now, this would be great if it didn't come at a price. But, unfortunately, it seems that the price has been all too high. Let's tally it up:

1) We have even fewer built-in Civs than Civ II when we ought to have had more. Gone are the Spanish, the Mongols, the Celts, the Carthagenians, and the Vikings. Why? Apparently because 16 fancy leader graphics were all they could muster in the time allowed.

2) We (apparently) have no ability to ADD CUSTOM CIVS to the playable mix in a standard, random map game. Why? Apparently because providing a CUSTOM OR GENERIC fancy leader graphic was too burdensome.

3) We can only play with a maximum of 8 Civs/game. Why? Apparently because it is simply not possible to fit more than 7 fancy leader graphics in the diplomacy screen.

So, Civers, which would you rather have -- more built-in Civs, the ability to add CUSTOM CIVS, and more Civs/game OR fancy leader graphics?

To me, these fancy leader graphics hardly compensates for the loss of these three game playing advances. Give me a generic graphic which gives me the basic info I need to know about each leader instead if it will also mean that I can enjoy playing with more Civs, my own CUSTOM civs, and more Civs/game! After all, this game is called "Civilization" NOT "Leaders w/ Morphing and Aging Faces"!

	11-08-2001 06:32									#2
	Support Apolyton, buy Alpha Centauri

Hmm ive heard this before?

This is becoming a broken record.

Hey i like the title of this thread though.

	11-08-2001 06:43									#3
	Support Apolyton, buy Civilization: The Boardgame

quote: Originally posted by Draco aka Se7eN Hmm ive heard this before? This is becoming a broken record.

ditto..


you people evaluate the game too much before you've played it..

	11-08-2001 06:46									#4
	Help yourself to an AD-FREE life

So when did you try the editor out Arator?

	11-08-2001 06:58									#5
	Avatar Enlargement: We've got the solution

Arator, your childish whine is becoming quite tiresome, you want to keep it up until everyone calls you stupid?

	11-08-2001 09:46									#6
	Avatar Enlargement: We've got the solution

quote: Originally posted by uncle_funk So when did you try the editor out Arator?

I haven't. All I have to go on is their "Player Set Up" screenshot which has no apparent allowance for additional custom civs.

If, in fact, this IS possible via the editor, I hope they will confirm it and, if they do, I'll happily shut up. If, on the other hand, it is not possible, I will continue to vent my frustration over that fact in the hope Firaxis will FIX IT before its too late and the game FLOPS as a result. I'm sorry, but 16 civs and only 16 civs with no ability to add custom civs to the playable mix in a standard, random map game just does not cut it. That's NOT what we've waited 10 long years for. I and millions of other CIV FANATICS will not waste our money on what is, for those of us who value highly the Civs we play and play against, a step backwards in game play.

	11-08-2001 10:54									#7
	Support Apolyton, buy Civilization III: Complete

I don't know why they needed to add more Civs. CtP added tons, but I played with only those that were in the original civ. With a small number of civs they were able to balance out the attributes and make it so that the slight differences add to the strategy and gameplay without unbalancing multiplayer.

And if you really believe that they have sacrificed gameplay for graphics then we are in trouble. Look at the map screens. Yeah they look good - have a painted quality to them, but they certainly are not top of the line. If they detracted from game play then civ III is not going to be worth buying

But I really don't think this is the case. It is not that hard to implement changing backgrounds by age. Heck, civ I had it in its diplomacy menu with people smiling behind the leader. It is a nice touch and I am glad they implemented it. Certainly something most games are now doing. Because it really is not that hard to do.

	11-08-2001 11:06									#8
	Full PM-box? Change here!

I happen to agree with Arator.

	11-08-2001 11:57									#9
	Arator, please stop Support Apolyton, buy Alpha Centauri

1. Why would we need more than 16 slots when you can only have 8 at a time and you can customise at will at any rate?

2. You're talking this as if it's a fact

3. Is there any rationale on wanting to have more than 8 civs in a game?

Most importantly, how would any of the problems you found be a major hindrance to gameplay? Are you saying that the game's going to be bad because you can't have more than 8 civs, or that the AI routines are going to break down if there are only 16 slots?

	11-08-2001 14:17									#10
	Re: Arator, please stop Support Apolyton buy from Amazon

quote: Originally posted by Urban Ranger 1. Why would we need more than 16 slots when you can only have 8 at a time and you can customise at will at any rate?

Because I would like to be able to play a standard, random map game with my own custom civs IN ADDITION TO the 16 built-in Civs. It is NOT YET AT ALL CLEAR that you can "customize at will" in the standard, random map game. In fact, the indications from the "Player Set Up" screen shot is that you can't.

quote: 2. You're talking this as if it's a fact

I am expressing my concerns based on the information we have to date. I am anxious for FIRAXIS to disabuse me with FACTS.

quote: 3. Is there any rationale on wanting to have more than 8 civs in a game?

That's not my big beef. I can live with only 8/game though more, say 10 or 12, would be ideal.

My big beef is being limited to playing with and against only the 16 built in Civs in a standard, random map game.

quote: Most importantly, how would any of the problems you found be a major hindrance to gameplay? Are you saying that the game's going to be bad because you can't have more than 8 civs, or that the AI routines are going to break down if there are only 16 slots?

No, I am saying that the game will not be enjoyable if I cannot play with and against the Civs I prefer to play with and against. Which Civs I play with and against MATTERS TO ME. I know from many posts to this forum that I am not alone in this. Are you listening Firaxis?

	11-08-2001 18:59									#11
	Get a bigger avatar today!

I agree with Arator. I think it is the gradual RTS-ing of Civ.

	12-08-2001 04:28									#12
	Increase the size of your Attachments

Bump to the top!

	12-08-2001 06:18									#13
	Re: Re: Arator, please stop Support Apolyton, buy Galactic Civilizations

quote: Originally posted by Arator No, I am saying that the game will not be enjoyable if I cannot play with and against the Civs I prefer to play with and against. Which Civs I play with and against MATTERS TO ME. I know from many posts to this forum that I am not alone in this. Are you listening Firaxis?

How many times do we have to say this, stupid? Create (or download) a rules.txt file (are you in any way familiar with this file???) that has all of your favorite civs, just the way you want them and play a game with that file. We do this all the time in Civ2 when we feel the need. But I and several others think you are too stupid to comprehend this because you keep repeating the same old whining rant.

	12-08-2001 07:41									#14
	Re: Re: Re: Arator, please stop Support Apolyton, buy Civilization III: Complete

quote: Originally posted by Steve Clark How many times do we have to say this, stupid? Create (or download) a rules.txt file (are you in any way familiar with this file???) that has all of your favorite civs, just the way you want them and play a game with that file. We do this all the time in Civ2 when we feel the need. But I and several others think you are too stupid to comprehend this because you keep repeating the same old whining rant.

No I can't. That primative, lame, make-do, ought-to-be-improved-upon-in-a-revision-10-years-later method requires me to REPLACE and ELIMINATE the other built-in Civs. I want to ADD TO THEM. Get it, Einstein?

	12-08-2001 10:03									#15
	Support Apolyton, buy Galactic Civilizations: Deluxe Edition

quote: . Is there any rationale on wanting to have more than 8 civs in a game?

Yes.... Scenarios! I cant count the number of Civ2 Scenarios I've played with a 'Neutreal Alliance'. Thats lameness to the max right there. Usually its Japan, maybe Australia, some middle east states and india.... come on. "NEUTRAL ALLIANCE" Its SO lame. At least with more Civs per game, I can actually make a Scenario that doesn't need Neutral Alliances.... WW3... Teams: USA, Europe, Commie Russia, Neutral Alliance, China, Arab States. Tada... cant ge tmuch lamer.

The reason why I rant like this is, I too am very disheartend that we arent getting more civs. Although, I agree that in normal random map or random games on premade map civ games,having to many civs wasnt much fun because techs spread like wild fire. I usually only played with 4 civs... but scenarios get the short end of the deal with only 8 civs.

	12-08-2001 10:26									#16
	Support Apolyton, buy Call to Power 2

Hasn't Dan said that scenario editors can put up to 16 civs in a game at a time? So why is there so much worrying again?

	12-08-2001 12:34									#17
	Support Apolyton, buy Call to Power 2

quote: Originally posted by tniem So why is there so much worrying again?

Arator is just whining.

	12-08-2001 12:35									#18
	Enter the AD-FREE zone

quote: No, I am saying that the game will not be enjoyable if I cannot play with and against the Civs I prefer to play with and against.

If you don't enjoy it, don't play it. Go bother somebody else. We're all sick of it.

	12-08-2001 16:09									#19
	Tired of ads?

can we have a civil discussion on this forum please?

if disagree with someone either post a counter agrument or ignore the post. in a forum where threads drop to page 2 in a mattr of hours, posting in a thread to complain about the thread only brings the opposite effect.....

	12-08-2001 16:35									#20
	Support Apolyton, buy Civilization 2

The second concern is semi-valid, but there is absolutely no reason to post three threads about it, nor act like an immature ***** instead of making a decent, low-key suggestion.

The first concern I think has to be among the most ridiculous I've heard during my time on Apolyton, and I've heard a lot of crap eminating from some of the people here. To call the decision to have few, personality-infused, interesting, differentiated civs that each have their unique advantadges and disadvantadges, and trying to balance all this, "Graphics over Gameplay" is pure, unbridled nonsense. It's not a "Graphics over Gameplay" choice, it's a "Certain type of Gameplay over another type of Gameplay". You may not like it, but be aware that most people here judging from the reactions certainly do. To trivialise one of the bigger gameplay enhancers into "pretty pictures" is an insult to both Firaxis and everyone who actually likes this idea. How can you have the gall to presume that your messed-up vision of an ideal game is the only valid one? How dare you?

What I think, notice "think", not a statement of fact, is that it's a good decision. I personally would rather have 16 distinct civs than one civ with 64 different faces. You do not agree, but puh-lease don't try to pass accross your nonsense as fact.

	12-08-2001 23:04									#21
	Support Apolyton, pre-order Civilization IV

quote: Originally posted by Snapcase The second concern is semi-valid, but there is absolutely no reason to post three threads about it, nor act like an immature ***** instead of making a decent, low-key suggestion.

Well, part of my passion about this is I raised these issues repeatedly at the Firaxis forum just after Civ 3 was announced and here back in May. Firaxis has never explicitly responded to the issue.

I was molified by their hints of a super-improved scenario editor, but when I saw the screenshot of the "Player Set Up" screen, it became obvious, incredibly, that the "Your Civ" selector for the standard, random map game is still as rigid and inflexable as it was in Civ II which was and is a crushing disappointment to me especially given that we only have 16 built-in Civs now to play with. To me, this lack of freedom to customize and play with the civs of my choice in the standard, random map game is just a game-killer. I don't think I'm alone in this. So, I am trying to let Firaxis feel the passion of my ire before its too late and they make a terrible mistake. I don't want to see Civ 3 fail, but I fear it will. I'm not going to buy it if it does not allow me the freedom to play with and against the civs of my choosing. It's as simple as that.

quote: The first concern I think has to be among the most ridiculous I've heard during my time on Apolyton, and I've heard a lot of crap eminating from some of the people here. To call the decision to have few, personality-infused, interesting, differentiated civs that each have their unique advantadges and disadvantadges, and trying to balance all this, "Graphics over Gameplay" is pure, unbridled nonsense. It's not a "Graphics over Gameplay" choice, it's a "Certain type of Gameplay over another type of Gameplay". You may not like it, but be aware that most people here judging from the reactions certainly do. To trivialise one of the bigger gameplay enhancers into "pretty pictures" is an insult to both Firaxis and everyone who actually likes this idea. How can you have the gall to presume that your messed-up vision of an ideal game is the only valid one? How dare you?

I have no problem at all with differentiate civs. In fact, that is an improvement. But, lets get real here. As far as the way the game is played, the substance of the differentiation lies not in the FANCY LEADER GRAPHICS but in:

1) the 2 out of 6 possible CIV ABILITIES assigned to each Civ

2) the SPECIAL UNIT assigned to each Civ, and unique timing of its "Golden Age" which flows from it.

That's it. The FANCY LEADER GRAPHIC is just superfluous cosmetics. That's why it is GALLING to have 3 fundamental improvements in game play and customizability sacrificed for the sake of FANCY LEADER GRAPHICS.

I see no reason why, if we are allowed to ADD CUSTOM CIVS, these two substantive CIV differentiations -- 2 CIV ABILITIES and SPECIAL UNIT -- cannot easily be made part of the customization process. Everytime you build a custom civ, you choose 2 out of the 6 civ abilities for it and you select one unique unit out of all the standard units to marginally enhance in attack, defense, or movement and become that Civ's Civ Specific Unit. What's so hard about that? It isn't. The only hurdle to full customization of unique civs is the FANCY LEADER GRAPHICS! So, I ask you, how infuriating is that?

quote: What I think, notice "think", not a statement of fact, is that it's a good decision. I personally would rather have 16 distinct civs than one civ with 64 different faces. You do not agree, but puh-lease don't try to pass accross your nonsense as fact.

Unlimited differentiated and fully customizable civs would be even better don't you think? As I've demonstrated in this post, but for the FANCY LEADER GRAPHICS, it could be easily done. Don't you think they should?

At least give us a generic fancy leader graphic to use for all custom civs created. That would be a stop gap given their present graphically driven game design. But, please, Firaxis, DO NOT SACRIFICE FUNDAMENTAL IMPROVEMENTS IN GAME CUSTOMIZABILITY AND PLAY for the sake of fluff like fancy leader graphics! I beg you!