11-01-2001 15:29									#1
	Scouting: Luxury or Necessity? Enter the AD-FREE zone

On another thread "True Value of Early Trade - A Case Study" the question of the relative importance of 'scouting' was raised - DaveV has PMed me expressing interest, but anxious not to 'Threadjack' and EST has expressed a view strongly advocating an aggressive exploration policy. It therefore seems appropriate to start a new thread to gather our experiences and views.
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My three ha'p'orth:
During the early years of ICS expansion on the home continent, I feel that exploration is a luxury and perform it in a perfunctory and minimalistic fashion. Once I have a spare boat, I try and put a Settler and something on four legs to sea to help expansion and hut grabbing. Of course mutatis mutandis if the first two huts tip out friendly horses I shall explore to even EST's hearts content.

It is more than likely that my strategy is coloured by my lack of experience in MP, or simple incompetence , but I welcome other ideas and views on this topic ....



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Scouse Git[1]

"CARTAGO DELENDA EST" - Cato the Censor
"The Great Library must be built!"
"A short cut has to be challenging,
were it not so it would be 'the way'." - Paul Craven

	11-01-2001 17:39									#2
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It depends on the game. If at 4000BC I start with a bucket full of tech it usually means either a small continent/island or bad guys around the corner. In this case I explore aggressively to see how large my estate is (if small - Map Making becomes a priority) or to guard choke points against a possible nasty neighbour.

Starting with little/no tech I am more relaxed about exploration. I think maritime explorartion is very important, if only to open up the waters around your shores for the whales/fish the land units can't find.

I hardly ever play on small maps - usually large or giga.

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SG(2)

	11-01-2001 18:05									#3
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I am a huge advocate of exploration, and usually try to have one explorer per city in the early game. I think there are many advantages to revealing the map as soon as possible:

1. You can see the barbs coming, and prepare a suitable welcoming committee.

2. In SP, finding the AIs can result in bonus gold and techs.

3. Occupying choke points lets you skimp on defense and expand aggressively. Like any other game, there's a big advantage to tempo in Civ; establishing an early presence in contested areas can gain you large swaths of territory.

4. In MP, finding your opponent(s) forces them to concentrate on defense; it is also the first step in establishing an embassy, which I consider crucial in MP.

5. Huts, huts, huts.

	11-01-2001 18:16									#4
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I think exploration and opening up the map is the most fun aspect of the game. So I guess it goes without saying that I advocate a healthy exploration of the given world. It speeds up interaction with others, rewards you (for the most part) with the huts and can help you claim the richest lands before anyone else can lay their flag in the ground.

To sit back and be a hermit may work well for some, but it bores me to death. The game is really about how you interact with other civs to me. Why wouldn't you want to get out there and meet them (and destroy them if necessary)?

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[This message has been edited by drake (edited January 11, 2001).]

	11-01-2001 18:49									#5
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There are so many benefits to early exploration that it is hard to know which ones to extol first.

I'll pick just three.

Securing lebensraum. You are given a good start position plus some free tech. You suspect that you have a neighbour. Your scout finds him. He has only one or two cities down and a settler wandering about. At best there is a choke point which will stop him expanding towards you (or sometimes, at all). At worst, your scout stays close to the settler so it can't safely found. Meanwhile you expand towards your neighbour.

This guy will now be no problem. You will get ahead of him and later snuff him out or relegate him to puppet status as you choose.

cf You don't bother to scout. Your sprawl bumps into him a few centuries down the road. He has a few cities down and is denying you room. He poses a threat. You have to take time out to build an army and wage a determined war. Maybe you have to change research path to get the offensive unit you need. You are uncomfortably aware that elsewhere on the map there is a civ or two which is not so hampered and they are expanding faster than you and getting their infrastructure rolling.

Huts. Your scouts get well away from your own cities. Huts begin to yield "non" unit. These units have value through all the rest of the game. At the outset they accelerate your scouting but later (if you are on a continent of limited size) they come home to help with early martial law, to escort settlers and to tighten your grip on the neighbours. Later still they can occupy choke points under representative gov.t without causing unhappiness problems; likewise when you get to explore away from your home continent there is no problem taking them overseas. Civ is a long game. The cumulative value of not having to support a unit is high.

And I don't have to tip all the huts I find. On large, well explored, maps its often possible to be confident that another civ is not going to get to many of the huts found. If you wait until you can spare a dip or two and there is some gold in the treasury, you can tip those huts with your fingers crossed hoping for a barb outcome.

Early diplomacy. If I'm going to lose a game, a very likely cause will be the combination of an early setback to barbs plus an isolated location. If my scouts find a civ or two early I'm pretty well certain to derive diplomatic advantages. The AI is generous about trading techs on first contact. If I'm offered a tech on the monarchy path (or whichever path I'm following), great. If not I don't have to trade right away. All I have to do is remember what advances he's got and use that info when making my research decisions. And then, a few hundred years down the road I have the extra option of foreign trade if I need it.

Well this post is getting way too long so I'll give way to the next contributor. But there must be at least another dozen cogent reasons to explore and to keep on exploring.

Besides which - what the heck - it's fun.

	12-01-2001 00:07									#6
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I have found it interesting reading the above comments recommending vigorous exploration. Much of it is good strategy.

The Hut tipping aspect worries me!

When do you guys open your huts? Too much early unwanted science give you "Great Library Syndrome", with a cluttered science path. Too many units - if supported from that one city on the edge of the empire presents support problems, especially for new ICS cities...

So DaveV - when you say huts, huts, huts, .... they can be bad news as well ...

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SG(2)

	12-01-2001 00:21									#7
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EST

quote: If you wait until you can spare a dip or two and there is some gold in the treasury, you can tip those huts with your fingers crossed hoping for a barb outcome.

You're saying that a barbarian town makes a good aquisition for your military huh? That's actually a very interesting idea, never thought to do that before. Thanks. How much do the units usually cost btw? I've never tried bribing barbs before. Cheap?

quote: So DaveV - when you say huts, huts, huts, .... they can be bad news as well ...

Though this wasn't for me, I whole-heartedly agree. Too much of a good thing is bad. As with everything, huts are no exception to the rule. I'm actually playing a game in which I had a lousy starting point and journeyed far in every direction to get the resources I needed to get off the ground. These journeys brought many units and settlers, which I coveted, but they also brought science in at a ridiculous race. For a long time I was first in science because of my explorations. But when the huts started to run out, so did my lead. At this point in the game, several centuries later, I have hit rock bottom. Even with a well developed infastructure, my science rate is horrible, even at 80%. Well, it's a lesson learned. But I don't know if I'll follow it in the future. I sorta like playing treasure hunter.

[This message has been edited by drake (edited January 11, 2001).]

	12-01-2001 00:31									#8
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SG2 - I recognize the contradiction in advocating hut-tipping while dismissing the Great Library as hamstringing your tech research (that's why I thought a thread on this topic would be interesting). As Woody Hayes used to say, "when you pass the ball, three things can happen, and two of them are bad" (if you don't know anything about American football, it's not worth trying to explain that).

The short answer is that I tip huts when I find them, except when a horse finds a hut on open land with his second move. In the latter case, I wait until the following turn so the horse can attack or run from a barb.

To deal with the objections: if a city ends up suppporting several hut units, I'll garrison it with units from other cities to keep the shield drain manageable. Bad techs from huts can be a problem, but a needed tech is a godsend. I think good and bad techs balance out in the long run, and free cities and units tip the balance heavily in favor of tipping.

A good argument in favor of hut tipping is that many good players rush to do it in MP.

	12-01-2001 01:40									#9
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Well, the only time I do not tip huts is when there is a defencless city nearby or I am planing on building one there the next few turns.

Sometimes I lose a lot of faithful horsemen to barbarians but that is a minor prize to pay comparing to the benefits in my opinion.

Most of the times I follow a more or less linear rechearch strategy (i.e. from nothing: alphabet, writing ... literacy, Philisophy etc) and I never found techs from huts a problem (in Emperor level at least). I try to be ahead in tech by researching techs that increase the literacy percentage of my civ.

Of course a good approach is to have an explorer with a trimere (the earliest the better) and have them roaming around discvering continents. All huts that are near the coast can 90% of the time be completly safely tipped!

If the barbarians come bursting out I just load my explorer back in the trireme and leave them staring at eachother.

Only danger is with inland huts and barbs that can surround your unit leaving no escape to the sea. Other than that all is safe.

	12-01-2001 03:16									#10
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Dave - I know little about American Football - but I think I know what you're saying!

I'm sure at MP it is worthwhile - though from what I gather many MP games are on small/tiny worlds. The chances of NON units are far greater.

My problem with unit support happened whilst playing a giga map - so many huts to chase. I found an Advanced Tribe - then about ten more huts - mostly giving units.
The Advanced Tribe was in the middle of nowhere (supporting them all) so re-homing units was impossible.

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SG (2)

	12-01-2001 12:31									#11
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drake -- yes, barbarians are cheap to bribe. They're treated as a civilization with no capital, and they also have no treasury -- two major factors that influence bribe cost. Cheap units and even cheaper cities. Virtually always a good deal. See the thread on "bribing non-barb units" -- it worked its way around to barbs pretty fast -- and SlowThinker's dip\spy thread on the Civ2-general-community forum.

	12-01-2001 16:52									#12
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I like scouting a lot.
But I admit that it can be risky some times.
But no strategy is a sure way to win at Civ2. That's what so pleasant.

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	12-01-2001 18:05									#13
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Bribe cost of barbs is half unit cost plus 1 so they are cheap indeed.

There are a small series of "recruiting station" tactics built around this fact.

If you find a barb city, resist the temptation promptly to buy it in. Instead, sit your diplo quietly outside and then bribe each barb unit as it periodically emerges. You get a constant supply of non units.

(This turns out to be so powerful a tactic that you may give it up after its won a few games for you.)

Barbs have regular spawning points - in areas where no cities have been established. Once you spot such a point (or once you have intentionally constructed your civ to leave such an area handy) you just sit your diplo/s down, armed with the King's shilling, and declare the recruiting post open for business. A floating recruiting office can be particularly effective.

Turning to huts I agree that unwanted advances and supported units can be a hassle. In addition an explorer who has managed to get far from home and who still has swathes of unexplored territory before him has acquired extra value by reason of his advanced position. It is horrid to lose him when a barb or several pop out of a hut.

So I don't tip every hut straight away.

I do immediately tip any hut which an opponent can quickly get to. Despite the disadvantages, the balance as between a beneficial outcome and a poor one falls heavily on the plus side.

In the case you cite, SG, (the remote advanced tribe) you were in too much of a rush IMHO. In this situation, and also in the case of huts close to where you have founded your first city or two, don't tip until there are enough nearby cities of a sufficient size to support units (should that be what you get) without the support cost being too burdensome. The period of delay needed is often quite short. So your intrepid explorer simply uncovers the hut and moves on. He wants to get far enough from home so that the chance of non units grows. The hut will be tipped either by him (and/or his fellow explorers) when he/they have completed the exploration of the continent and are on their way home or by a unit sent out from the nearby cities once they have become sufficiently developed.

By the way, a small point on support which I noticed a while back is that in a city which is giving up a shield to corruption, that shield is still available for support purposes. So, until you get the corruption sorted, prefer to support a unit in that city - it costs you nothing.

Like DaveV I also wait until a four footer can tip with his first move. In addition, because of the value of a remote unit, I often don't tip a hut on a forest, hill or other two movement square unless I think my exploring unit has the defensive qualities to survive a barb outcome. By waiting I may be able to support the tipping unit with diplos or else - after the continent has been fully explored - by using a unit with less positional value.

As to unwanted advances, I know of no panacea. No doubt there are special situations (the need to get into monarchy being one, strategic need for an advance leading to a critical wonder another) when tipping should be delayed for this reason too. For myself I just take it on the chin when warrior code comes out and remember the other times when I get the advance I'm already researching (which, early on might have taken me 9 or 10 turns) or the one which recent events have made me think I ought to have gone for. And if my path gets delayed I start thinking about how to catch up through the effective foreign trade which my exploration has made more possible.

Drake. If you try that approach again, go wholeheartedly for conquest. Use the hut units to destroy or conquer the AI civs while they are young and tender. My experience is that if you delay founding a capital for a looooooong time you get lots and lots of units from huts. And, as is well known, before you have founded you won't get barbs. On a world where all the landmasses are joined you can conquer the world without founding a city at all.

And I agree, treasure hunting in civ still gives me a buzz despite the number of games I've played.

Wonder if they'll manage to achieve this again in Civ 3?

	13-01-2001 10:25									#14
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EST, about barbs and hut tipping:
I moved a boat with a diplo up next to a hut on the polar cap. The diplo opened the hut and 2 or 3 barb horses appeared. Then I attacked one of them with my boat and the barb horse died. End of turn - voilla - the rest of the barbs vanished in thin air! This has happened to me twice. I hope this is a a regular occurence, if so it makes hut-barbs less scary...

	13-01-2001 10:49									#15
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Lars

Yes. Barbs emerging from an arctic hut always die before they can attack. Seemingly such hot blooded characters don't like it chilly.

If you are going round the pole latish, another thing can happen. You may find a couple of non settlers wandering around. They are a re-started civ which has never found anywhere to found. For some reason they usually have one military unit with them. They all represent a wonderfully bargain basement buy. I think I like non settlers more than any other unit (except the caravan/freight, of course). Love it when the same trusty chaps who started improving my land in 4000 BC are still beavering away when my spaceship is about to land. Although I sometimes reward their long and faithful labours by finally letting them found a city just before the end.

I used to think that you never get barbs from a mountain hut but it has now happened to me two or three times. I still think that it is a less frequent outcome than normal tho'.

	12-01-2001 23:02									#16
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LARS-E...I have read somewhere on these forums, and also have experienced it many times...a hut on the polar areas at the top or bottom edge of your map which yields barbarians when opened has the fortunate consequence of the barbs expiring before the start of your next turn. So, an explorer or diplomat with zero defense can still be safe to use in tipping huts on the polar regions. As far as I know, the disappearance of barbarians there has nothing to do with one or more of them being killed by your boat or your troop attack. Actually, the polar regions are good places to have a diplomat or two along (depending on your ship carrying ability) Open the hut with your troop, then if barbs, use the diplomat to bribe the barb, thus getting a NON unit usually. Have done it many times.

	13-01-2001 05:39									#17
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I am a huge advocate of hut tipping. I will take any units being a warmonger and although the science has backfired too many times on me......... more often than not it is a benefit. Sure Monarchy in 625bc is bad..... but when you practically have every tech leading to invention anyways..... not to mention the ais slow grasp of monarchy..... in SP you can affoard to tip every and any hut.

In MP tipping is different especially in x2 production.
Monarchy is a must preferably by 3250bc..... without it.... your looking at a long uphill battle.... at least with the chaps i play with. However the chance of free cities or nomads can also greatly increase your lead and your real estate and your settler churning potential.

The worst thing in MP especially with hut tipping is the dreaded WC or getting a new unit and not being able to support your furthest one.... this happened to me and it took me 500 yrs to send another horse down the isthmus where the origional one was. Luckily my neighbors weren't privy to my map or i would have lost many techs and two cities later.

I keep tipping unless i am researching monarchy... then i will wait a couple of turns on that hut.... unless a rival shows up.... nothing like bumping into your neighbors with a warrior.... he has a horse... and out pops your friendly neighborhood chariot to save the day

	13-01-2001 09:42									#18
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Scouting is of the upmost importance in CivII, you must have knowledge of the map early.

Scouting== Success.

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	14-01-2001 10:59									#19
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in most games my priorites at the start are:
1.found city
2. build 3 warriors to gaurd
3. get horse back riding
4.build horsemen to go find some good city sites anf fortify at the square i want.
build settlers and repeate. until i get either all the good land on my particular continent or i found twenty cities whichever happens first.

	16-01-2001 05:10									#20
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IMHO, scouting is an absolute necessity. As is hut-tipping.

Let me explain my strategy...(btw this only works for me if I start on a medium to large sized continent with no immediate neighbors).

I clear out all the huts and open up the complete map of the continent I am on. I then build lots of settlers and send them out (much like a virus) and build cities on every habitable piece of land on that continent.

Any Non-affliated settlers I acquire thru tipping huts I use to build roads and irrigate until I have finished my expansion across the land. I figure if I have cities on every usable piece of land, no one else can build there ha ha ha. Then I build settlers in my cities and have them help complete the job. After I have done all of the irrigating and roadwork I need, I disband the affiliated settlers (why use up the food surplus keeping them active).

I then go about building military reserves and city improvements as well as ships and explorers to go check out the rest of the world and make contact with other civs.

If my piece of land is big enough, I usually don't have to build cities on any other landmass and I don't have to worry about *visitors* encroaching on my turf.

Typically I don't go past 15 or so cities. The logistics of managing more than that is overwhelming and bores me easily...


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--- James Bond

	16-01-2001 17:33									#22
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... nor does the UK ...
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SG(2)

	16-01-2001 23:13									#23
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I never thought «James Bond» would be wrong about something like that. He is so...well British

OK back to CIV

	16-01-2001 23:16									#24
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Ok, ok I know Bond is a caricature. I was just joking

	16-01-2001 23:21									#25
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If you don't try and get every single hut on a given map you're going to lose.

	17-01-2001 19:53									#26
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SG(1)
Thank you for not polluting the true value with scouting.
(The true value is so untrue and impure from the start that polluting it would be some kind of pleonasm ).

Back to scouting
This is a game, so it happens to me not to go scouting at all, just having the fun of seeing how it goes.
"Playing seriously" (isn't that a pleonasm, when talking about civ2?) I scout (mostly with dips) almost as soon as my beloved "3 trade" strategy has luckily led me to early Monarchy.

	17-01-2001 20:08									#27
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Dave and EST gave a number of very good reasons for scouting. Then I don't need to double-post.
Still, there is obviously a limit (an optimum? a "scoutmax"?). The one I apply, for the time being, is "no more than one trireme/ocean city", since this spares problems when being in Republic. But I'm far from sure it's optimal.

	17-01-2001 23:26									#28
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I think like niteowl as far as "my" continent is concerned, spreading over it like kudzu, the weed plague of the American South. I don't generally go to sea, except for sailing around said homeland, until I run out of "lebensraum." Then I scout the nearest continents and so forth, finding more settling space and sizing up the nearest opponents. I don't explore the far reaches until either I build Magellan's or get destroyers. I tip all huts as found, with the "run for it" caveat expressed above about a horseman's second move. Being an advocate of the Great Library (another thread for that exercise), I don't mind the extra techs.

Note that huts inside a city's radius never yield barbarians. Thus, if I plan a city near one, I'll wait to open it until after I've planted the city.

	18-01-2001 00:31									#29
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LaFayette -- you're French, you can speak Swedish, and you use English words such as "pleonasm"?! My hat's off to you, dude!