15-01-2001 18:46									#1
	The caravan and the diplomat Support Apolyton, buy Civilization 2

What a combination!

The caravan mossies on up to that remote foreign city demanding its goods. The diplo lurks in the caravan's shadows. The trade route is established and the gold pours into the diplo's pockets.

The AI rubs its hands at the prospect of benefitting from the route.

But hold hard AI! The diplo has emerged from the shadows; is talking to your citizens; and lo, their allegiance is not strong. The city's colour is changing and it seems that it is others who will enjoy the full riches of the route. No crumb will fall to you!

And the research bonus from the "foreign" trade with the trade arrows from both ends of the route? Why improved communications will ease the path of the deadly duo to their next unsuspecting destination in ever greater speed and comfort!

So you may talk of your nukes and paratroopers, of your spies and your cavalry, your explorers and your alpines. But draw up a chair to the fireside and let me tell you tales of the mightiest of the combos in the game.

The caravan and the diplomat.

	15-01-2001 19:26									#2
	Support Apolyton buy from Amazon

You let the AI get diplo's near your cities?????

Bad move.... very bad...

	17-01-2001 20:35									#3
	Support Apolyton, buy Civilization: The Boardgame

Ming
My feeling reading this is that EST is talking about HIS beloved and vicious diplos being very very close to the AI's city (and never never the reverse).

------------------
aux bords mystérieux du monde occidental

	17-01-2001 20:44									#4
	Support Apolyton, pre-order Civilization IV

Dead right mate!

Have you ever noticed that "their" spies are always the scum of the earth, deserving nothing but death and dishonour; whereas "our" spies are heroic folk to be festooned with medals and honours when successful and to be cried over and mourned when captured and executed?

	18-01-2001 10:28									#5
	Get a bigger avatar today!

Not sure about that EST ... remember George Smiley's hunt for the mole ... ?
---------
SG(2)

	18-01-2001 17:24									#6
	Got spare money?

I for once do not stack diplomats with caravans any more.

I used to do it. A nice peaceful mission crossing the calm nature of some distant civ in perfect harmony with the world due to their benevolent intentions. Waiving their hands in bliss and happiness preaching the awesome benefits of everlasting peace and trade as they walk on to their destination.

AND BANG THEY'RE DEAD.

Sneak attacks (or snak attacks as someone put it before). I've seen it so many times that my little old heart can't bear to try it anymore. NOw I stack a tank with them.

	18-01-2001 21:51									#7
	Inflate your Upload Space

I love George Smiley.
Sure he was really a vet (though I never heard of the english monarchy switching to communism). Must be one more of those AI cheats. Send it to Ming (he's got a long list as far as I know).
Or perhaps we should ask Smiley to get close to Brian Reynolds (would save us lots of boring tests).

	18-01-2001 23:42									#8
	Tired of ads?

Morality in the Looking Glass world is way beynd me! The "us" in that world seems to comprise all the spies (of whatever notional allegiance) and the "them" all the rest of us.

I was thinking more of those WW2 films - always in atmospheric black and white - where some ordinary, decent folk find themselves operating behing enemy lines in occupied France, sabotaging away and liaising with the resistance. If there are a pair of lovers you know they will both get caught and occupy adjoining cells, bravely keeping a stiff upper lip under the torture of the beastly gestapo and trying to keep each other's spirits up by yelling messages or tapping on pipes before the inevitable scene when each is led down into the courtyard and the camera cuts away while the sound of a volley of shots rings out.

Meanwhile in a film being made in the next lot some ghastly traitor is meanly fooling the good people of Surbiton into thinking he is a good egg when all the time, would you believe it, he is stooping so low as to sabotage the British war effort and subborning some lowly typist into, oh horrors, betraying king and country. What triumph when the rotter is caught and how fitting that he then come to the sticky end his conduct so richly deserves.

Luckily my spies and diplos are all of the first sort. Statistically unlikely as it may seem, the AI's are all of the second.

	19-01-2001 02:36									#9
	Support Apolyton, buy Call to Power 2

La Fayette - We seemed to have our share of communist moles during the Post-War years.

I doubt if that is a problem in Albi - is the birthplace of Toulouse-Lautrec still leaning to the "Le Pen" brand of politics?

EST - Oh yes, those black and white war films! Shows both our ages I'm afraid!
--------
SG(2)

	19-01-2001 06:06									#10
	Support Apolyton or Terrorists Win

EST-i have my own variation of your system. it goes something like this:
i build a diplo, caravan, and archer or legion, then a knights (or freight, spy, dragoons, and partisan for more modern eras), the archer/legion acts as an escort for the diplo and caravan, while the knight acts as a scout, keeping an eye out for enemies,more profitable cities, and the such. when my scout gets to the objective city, i have him run a patrol loop to keep enemies away until my slower moving group makes. from the city radius in, my diplo ans caravan are on there own, because my escourt stays back to prevent an unwanted war (if i am already at war with the civ who owns a city, i just let the escourt continue on to stay as a city defender in case the city is insufficiently defended, and if i am using partisans as my scout, i then make them my escourt, because they can ignore zones of control), from then on, it's the same as the basic caravan/diplo combo.

	19-01-2001 17:55									#11
	Get a bigger avatar today!

There is another advantage to having a powerful unit close by.

After the caravan arrives, you have an increased chance of extracting some preliminary tribute. This has the charming effect of both adding some AI gold to the yield from the caravan in preparation for the planned bribery and slimming down the AI's treasury just before your diplo starts sweet talking the city fathers (thereby cutting the bribe cost).

I am playing a game at the moment where I have adopted the aim of bribing every AI city (save the capitals, of course). Things have been going well and I have been making a fortune from trading silk and the occasional gold to the Aztecs who have some fat cities at a convenient distance from my homeland. Many of my cities produce silk and every one of the Aztec cities demand that commodity. I also have a sufficient chain of trusty triremes and caravels to reduce the risk of gold going out of demand.

Local barb activities suggest the Aztecs' units are mostly warriors. I have just researched Gunpowder (in one turn thanks to a 500 odd gold caravan to Tenochtitlan and a 300 odd silk to another city). I reckon the next set of caravans to arrive will be accompanied by a substantial detachment of the diplomatic corps plus one or two gentlemen with sticks that make a loud noise. It's my bet that the club wielding lads will not like the noise and a handsome payment will come my way.

The established routes yield four or five arrows apiece at each end. THEY MUST BE MINE, I SAY. ALL MINE.

I intend to rename the subborned cities "Bribery" "And" "Corruption" "Forever".
[This message has been edited by East Street Trader (edited January 19, 2001).]

	20-01-2001 10:13									#12
	Increase the size of your Attachments

EST
1)Black and white: only those two colours should be allowed when filming George Smiley or the moles.
2)Curiously all my dips and spies also are of the first type ( but believe me all my spies are vet).
SG
1) There is almost nothing left of Le Pen anywhere: his best friend betrayed him and there are 2 tiny parties very angry at each other instead of a growing one.
2) The museum dedicated to Toulouse-Lautrec is worth visiting. Of course you are welcome to my home, just in case.
3) Burgess? Mac Lean? Perhaps one of them learnt russian just like I learnt norwegian? Who really knows?

	20-01-2001 12:29									#13
	Support Apolyton, buy Galactic Civilizations

Semi-off-topic, but I've always thought that Isaac Newtons college should have some effect on spies.....


------------------
dulce et decorum est pro patria mori.
parturient montes, nascetur ridiculus mus.
atque inter silvas academi quaerere verum.
exigi monumentum aere perennius...non omnis moriar.

	20-01-2001 14:44									#14
	Avatar Enlargement: We've got the solution

La Fayette - May take you up on that some day!
----------
SG(2)

	20-01-2001 15:02									#15
	Put an end to popups!

Not good...

After reading few threads here I got again this strong urge to play civ...

But I have exams!!!

	20-01-2001 23:31									#16
	Avatar Enlargement: We've got the solution

"f*** the next lesson, i'll pass the test guessin'"
emeniem:"as the world turns"
now, GO PLAY CIV.

	23-01-2001 23:05									#17
	Support Apolyton buy from Amazon

La Fayette

Shades of grey ought to be allowed. Should be mandatory, in fact.

May I ask whereabouts in La Belle France is the fair town of Albi to be found?

And I wonder whether you feel inclined to add your location in the "Where are we" thread in the Community forum. France has heretofore been sadly unrepresented both in that thread and in these forums.

I am still playing my "bribe every non capital city" game (but I am about to get communism and lovely vet spies so it may not last too much longer). The wretched Aztecs established an early democracy and no strategem would get them out of it (cf the Romans who regularly abandoned democracy just for the doubtful pleasure of saying nasty things to me when I spoke to them - even if, when I asked to speak to them, my diplo was standing right beside one of their cities with his pockets full of cash).

Despite frustrating my plans, the Aztecs rather won my heart in that despite my emptying their cities of defenders (with mighty ironclads) in the hope that the nearby Japanese (not a democracy) would capture them, the Aztec wise men blythely decided that Sanitation was the advance upon which their peacefully minded civ should concentrate. Now that is taking pacific intent seriously! I am pretty much resigned to letting them succesively (and slowly) rebuild a palace in each of their remaining three cities so that I can take each in turn by military means.

	24-01-2001 19:42									#18
	Lose 30 kilos (of popups)

EST
Would pearl grey for George Smiley and anthracite grey for the moles suit you?
Toulouse should be easy to find on any map (except perhaps small random map). They are busy building Airbus there (better build Airbus than Concorde just now).
80km NE you find Albi (motorway all the way; I live in Saint-Sulpice halfway along, but my job is in Albi; I play civ2 at home and get linked to ACS...hush, don't tell my boss, I'm not sure he's an addict).
Going to have a look at the community forum.
Crush those Aztecs with vet spies (slate grey for them?).