14-08-2001 05:52									#1
	Ancient Times: changes in causality Suffering from ads?

Bronze Working
Civ2: - | Currency, Iron Working
Civ3: - | Iron Working
Ribannah says: - | Currency, Iron Working

Masonry
Civ2: - | Construction, Mathematics
Civ3: - | Mathematics
Ribannah says: - | Construction, Mathematics

Alphabet
Civ2: - | Map Making, Writing, Code of Laws, Mathematics
Civ3: - | Writing, Mathematics
Ribannah says: a wonder with Writing

Pottery
Civ2: - | Seafaring
Civ3: - | Map Making
Ribannah says: - | Mathematics, The Wheel

The Wheel
Civ2: Horseback Riding | Engineering
Civ3: - | Horseback Riding
Ribannah says: Pottery | Engineering, The Plough

Warrior Code
Civ2: - | Feudalism, Iron Working
Civ3: - | Horseback Riding, Monarchy
Ribannah says: - | (Archery->) Feudalism, Horseback Riding

Ceremonial Burial
Civ2: - | Mysticism, Polytheism
Civ3: - | Mysticism
Ribannah says: - | Monarchy, Mysticism

Iron Working
Civ2: Bronze Working, Warrior Code | Bridge Building, Gunpowder, Magnetism
Civ3: Bronze Working | Construction
Ribannah says: Bronze Working | (Alchemy->)Gunpowder; Metallurgy, The Plough

Mathematics
Civ2: Alphabet, Masonry | Astronomy, University
Civ3: Alphabet, Masonry | Construction, Currency
Ribannah says: Masonry, Pottery | Astronomy, University

Writing
Civ2: Alphabet | Literacy
Civ3: Alphabet | Code of Laws, Literature, Map Making, Philosophy
Ribannah says: - | Code of Laws, Literacy, Philosophy

Mysticism
Civ2: Ceremonial Burial | Astronomy, Philosophy
Civ3: Ceremonial Burial | Polytheism
Ribannah says: Ceremonial Burial | Mythology, Philosophy

Philosophy
Civ2: Literacy, Mysticism | Medicine, Monotheism, University
Civ3: Writing | The Republic, and next era
Ribannah says: Mysticism, Writing | Arts, Medicine, University, Theology

Code of Laws
Civ2: Alphabet | Monarchy, The Republic, Trade
Civ3: Writing | The Republic
Ribannah says: The Council, Writing | Monarchy, The Republic

Literature
Civ2 (Literacy): Writing | Invention, Philosophy, Physics, The Republic
Civ3: Writing | next era
Ribannah says (Literacy): Mythology, Writing | Arts, Printing Press, The Republic

Map Making
Civ2: Alphabet | Seafaring
Civ3: Pottery | next era
Ribannah says: - | Seafaring, Trade

Horseback Riding
Civ2: - | Chivalry, Polytheism, The Wheel
Civ3: Warrior Code, The Wheel | next era
Ribannah says: Warrior Code | Chivalry

Polytheism
Civ2: Ceremonial Burial, Horseback Riding | Monotheism
Civ3: Mysticism | Monarchy, and next era
Ribannah says (Mythology): Mysticism | Ethics

Construction
Civ2: Currency, Masonry | Bridge Building, Engineering
Civ3: Iron Working. Mathematics | next era
Ribannah says: Currency, Masonry | The Mill

Currency
Civ2: Bronze Working | Construction, Trade
Civ3: Mathematics | next era
Ribannah says: Bronze Working, The Council | Construction, Trade

The Republic
Civ2: Code of Laws, Literacy | Banking
Civ3: Code of Laws, Philosophy | next era
Ribannah says: Code of Laws, Literacy | Banking

Monarchy
Civ2: Ceremonial Burial, Code of Laws | Feudalism
Civ3: Polytheism, Warrior Code | next era
Ribannah says: Ceremonial Burial, Code of Laws | Feudalism, (The Guild--->) Nationalism

Last edited by Ribannah on 16-08-2001 at 13:00

	14-08-2001 08:18									#2
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I agree with most of your alterations. From what I've seen I prefer the Civ II tech tree over the new one.
I would make a few changes to your suggestions:

I wouldn't use pottery as a pre. for math
I agree with the Civ 3 prerequisites for Construction
I would add math to your pre. of currency along with bronze working

	14-08-2001 13:23									#3
	Re: Ancient Times: changes in causality Support Apolyton, buy Call to Power 2

I must be Bizarro Ribannah because I find myself disagreeing with most of what you've suggested:

- you don't need bronze to have currency
- the alphabet is NOT a wonder: many different civilizations discovered it and you can't build it. Please just get over it!
- there is no evidence linking pottery to either mathematics or the wheel
- the plough does not require the wheel or vice versa
- the plough also did not need metal (prehistoric people used wooden plows - they weren't as good, but they worked)
- mathematics does NOT need pottery, astronomy does not need mathematics. A university is an institution of learning, it doesn't require mathematics; it requires learned people, i.e. literacy
- mythology is the study of myths, not a religious development. What you're thinking of is polytheism (i.e. "many gods")
- ceremonial burial does not lead to philosophy
- "ethics" did not spring out of mysticism, polytheism or any other religious development - it was the application of philosophy to the study of "good" and "bad" behaviour
- the mill is irrelevant in the broader scheme of things - it improved the efficiency of agricultural workers but is not essential in a Civ game

Last edited by MarkG on 14-08-2001 at 16:00

	14-08-2001 15:53									#4
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Bizarro, could you edit your post to dump the full quote and improve readability?
I am also very curious what alternatives you have to offer, if any. My own choices are based on extensive research, much of which has been published before on this board, but I'm always willing to listen.
Note that not all causal links are purely technical, many represent a decisive incentive (such as Pottery->Mathematics). Further, techs like Currency and The Plough are placed in the tree at the time of a huge leap in their importance.

	14-08-2001 16:06									#5
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Markos has done it for you!

Markos rules!!

	14-08-2001 16:08									#6
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quote: Originally posted by Ribannah If you have no feet, don't walk on fire.

But if you walk on fire too often, you end up with no feet...

	14-08-2001 18:54									#7
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quote: Originally posted by Ribannah Bizarro, could you edit your post to dump the full quote and improve readability? I am also very curious what alternatives you have to offer, if any. My own choices are based on extensive research, much of which has been published before on this board, but I'm always willing to listen. Note that not all causal links are purely technical, many represent a decisive incentive (such as Pottery->Mathematics). Further, techs like Currency and The Plough are placed in the tree at the time of a huge leap in their importance.

You're right: apologies for the long post and thanks to Markos for cleaning up after me!

As to alternatives, I don't have any as I think the Firaxis guys largely have it right. You put your views up explicitly inviting comment and I gave it.

Can you please explain your link between pottery and mathematics? I still fail to see how firing clay leads one to geometry, algebra etc. Likewise, the plough as a technology is pretty much covered by "irrigation" - I don't see that we need a separate tech to represent the cutting of soil.

	14-08-2001 19:16									#8
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* Tries walking on water for a change*

quote: Originally posted by Kenobi Can you please explain your link between pottery and mathematics?

(a) stock- and therefore book-keeping;
(b) abstract thinking about content and shape of 3d objects;
(c) potters began to paint their pots with all kinds of abstract geometric shapes.

quote: The plough as a technology is pretty much covered by "irrigation"

On the contrary, irrigation is complementary to working the (irrigated) land. Also, Irrigation is a given in 4000 BC, while effective ploughs weren't around until some time after 1 AD. Both techniques do increase agricultural production though (as do several more, such as Soil Enrichment).

	14-08-2001 21:40									#9
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other than a quibble about the plough (which was very important in increasing the area of cultivated land well before the iron age - i can go back and look for my sources if you want) I must say your post mainly shows that you, ribannah, have a greater concern for history than Firaxis does, or than most of the Civ community at this point. Go on battling though, if you have the will.


Lord of the Mark
"Out of doubt, out of dark, to the day's rising, I came singing in the sun, sword unsheathing, now for wrath, now for ruin, and a red nightfall"

	14-08-2001 23:16									#10
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(a) stock- and therefore book-keeping;

Why not make double-entry bookkeeping a link to advanced mathematics then.


There are links between mathematics and many things but some are more direct and relevant than others. Based on the "links" you have given I think pottery at best is a parallel development. Mathematics found expression in pottery more than discovered due to it.

	15-08-2001 00:24									#11
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I'm not convinced by the link between Iron Working and Construction. What sort of construction are we envisaging? The Athenian Acropolis involved no ironwork. The Romans, while being involved in the transition between bronze and iron weapons and armour, performed wondrous feats of construction with no need of iron. Their success was more down to discovering concrete, the principle of the arch and sheer determination to build to last.

	16-08-2001 07:47									#12
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Re: the plough et al ...

Effective plough required the invention of the yoke so a beast of burden could pull a plough without choking.

Metal of some sort is absolutely needed for currency -- and the most basic form of metalworking we get is bronze. Herodotus: "The Lydians were the first to introduce the use of gold and silver coins [by Croesus ca. 550 BC]"; the beginnings of a market economy [and thereby coinage] can be traced to about 700 BC -- again we thank the Lydians, who used coins of electrum, a naturally occuring alloy of gold and silver which occurs in Anatolia. ("Currency" like the giant stone rings of the Pacific are actually status-symbolic, not monetary).

Let us also not forget the humble stirrup, without which heavy (armored) cavalry would have been impossible.

The water-wheel also significantly improved irrigation when introduced; there's also the windmill ...

Elsewhere I read a comment about chariots preceding horsebacking riding -- this would be correct, as horses were bred to their current size (the largest being destriers bred to carry the European knight). Perhaps "Horse Domestication" needs to come first (and the same for elephant's -- what's happened to the elephants??) and availabilty should be limited by making horses resources or whatever as (a particular annoyance of mine) the idea of any new world civilization developing cavalry is preposterous -- and also note that the inability to develop these would leave the Incas/Aztecs/whomevers forever in the ancient age, which is certainly historically accurate.

-Ozymandias

	16-08-2001 08:14									#13
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I've said it and I'm saying it again.

Currency (specifically coinage) doesn't require the use of metals. Many cultures started with things such as seashells, coffee beans, and other things you can find.


Ribannah,

I found many of the links on your tech tree questionable. I don't see how masonry leads to mathematics, for example. The most direct root of mathematics seemed to be astronomy, specifically determining the calander for the next year. That is of utmost importance to an agrarian society.

	16-08-2001 11:25									#14
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I think semantics is tripping us up, or at least tripping me up, as I believe that "currency" in the tech tree is being mistakenly used as a synonym for "coinage".

You are quite correct: many objects have been used as units of exchange within a single society, typically based upon perceived ornamentation or consumption value. Yet, even though such an item might have uniform value within a society, it would be worthless to a foreigner unless it had barter value. As a very simple example, he might view your wampum as lovely trinkets but not worth trading his precious salt for, as the wampum might be worthless at his next destination.

Precious metals, being universally desireable and readily transportable, allowed different societies' (different civilizations) to engage in trade beyond barter. The old "Trade" advance seems to have disappeared -- recall that it allowed commodities to be exchanged for the game's universal currency. It seems reasonable that its equivalent be required to allow a civilization to pass from an "ancient" to a "middle" age.

So I suggest that "Currency" be renamed "Coinage" and perhaps require "Bronze Working" and "Code of Laws" as predecessors.

-O.

	16-08-2001 12:46									#15
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quote: Originally posted by Urban Ranger The most direct root of mathematics seemed to be astronomy, specifically determining the calander for the next year. That is of utmost importance to an agrarian society.

I think Agriculture, which (via Irrigation) leads to The Calendar, is already a prerequisite for Mathematics. But that's a given in Civ3.
It isn't in my complete technology tree, but there Agriculture leads to Pottery, so having it as a prerequisite for Mathematics would be superfluous.
I also have The Calendar (wonder: Stonehenge) as a PREREQ for Astronomy.
The early Calendars were simply based on the seasons and the moon, which doesn't qualify as Astronomy IMHO. But they were an incentive for the discovery of Astronomy, which became feasible only AFTER Mathematics. Then it did lead to better calendars, but the impact of the early calendars is already too large to ignore.

	16-08-2001 12:58									#16
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quote: Originally posted by Ozymandias Precious metals, being universally desireable and readily transportable, allowed different societies' (different civilizations) to engage in trade beyond barter. The old "Trade" advance seems to have disappeared -- recall that it allowed commodities to be exchanged for the game's universal currency. It seems reasonable that its equivalent be required to allow a civilization to pass from an "ancient" to a "middle" age.

An excellent point.

quote: So I suggest that "Currency" be renamed "Coinage" and perhaps require "Bronze Working" and "Code of Laws" as predecessors.

I wouldn't rename it though because Coinage is just the technology to make coins, while Currency stands for the entire concept. As long as the description says something about what it means in the game, I'm happy.
In my complete tree I have The Council (leading to Code of Laws) as a prereq for Currency; Code of Laws would not be a bad choice at all in Civ3.

	16-08-2001 19:18									#17
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Just a small suggestion. Shouldn't Bronze Working have Pottery as a prerequisite? After all, both require high temperature melting ovens, though for pottery the needed temperature is lower. So one can assume the discovery of ovens for Pottery is necessary before one can come on the idea or need to create higher temperature ovens, which then allows bronze working.

And why by the way is Steel treated as an industrial tech? Late-Medieval knights already had swords of steel, I thought.

My 2 eurocents,

M@ni@c

	16-08-2001 19:51									#18
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M@ni@c, your points about the relationship between pottery and bronze working are excellent. The point about "steel" is slightly off, though. I always imagined their version of "steel" as the ability to forge the precision pieces required for complex machinery.

	16-08-2001 20:24									#19
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The transition from medaieval to industrial is a difficult one because much of the progress was evolutionary rather than revolutionary. Cannon did not suddenly appear that were capable of smashing down castle or city walls. Every century the quality of weapons, casting of cannon, refining of gunpowder, accuracy of firearms and size of the artillery was improved. Civ tries to wrap it all up in one tech and associated unit in each category. The invention isn't steel so much as it is steel processing methods of sufficient quantity and efficiency to make production of the associated units practical.

	17-08-2001 09:44									#20
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Pah.

Screwed up by vBB's sporadic auto-logout

Last edited by Urban Ranger on 17-08-2001 at 09:55

	17-08-2001 09:50									#21
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quote: Originally posted by Ribannah I think Agriculture, which (via Irrigation) leads to The Calendar, is already a prerequisite for Mathematics. But that's a given in Civ3. It isn't in my complete technology tree, but there Agriculture leads to Pottery, so having it as a prerequisite for Mathematics would be superfluous. I also have The Calendar (wonder: Stonehenge) as a PREREQ for Astronomy. The early Calendars were simply based on the seasons and the moon, which doesn't qualify as Astronomy IMHO. But they were an incentive for the discovery of Astronomy, which became feasible only AFTER Mathematics. Then it did lead to better calendars, but the impact of the early calendars is already too large to ignore.

Not necessarily. The early Egyptians based their calander on the star Sirus (something have to do with the flooding of the Nile). Even if that's not the case I'd count observations of the Sun and the Moon astronomy - some civs had lunar calanders but some others had solar calanders.

Making a lunar calander work year in and year out means it has to mesh with the solar cycle, which drives the seasons. Not an easy task.

	17-08-2001 09:54									#22
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quote: Originally posted by Ozymandias Precious metals, being universally desireable and readily transportable, allowed different societies' (different civilizations) to engage in trade beyond barter. The old "Trade" advance seems to have disappeared -- recall that it allowed commodities to be exchanged for the game's universal currency. It seems reasonable that its equivalent be required to allow a civilization to pass from an "ancient" to a "middle" age.

Hm.

While currency itself is an universal idea, being a means of trade, the implementation of it is civ-specific. My one dollar probably has a different worth than your one dollar. So if these early traders wanted to go for currency they had to use some kind of precious metal, such as gold or silver. The problem with that of course is the measuring system. Your system probably has a different unit of mass than mine.

At any rate, gold and silver are soft and have low melting points

	17-08-2001 10:14									#23
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One big thing that's missing from Civ 3 ancient tree is paper.

Writing -> Paper -> Literacy, Mapmaking

	17-08-2001 10:54									#24
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i don't think everyone invented the calender because of irrigation...in fact i think the romans invented the calender because they had corrupt elected officials who would extend their terms out as long as possible because there wasn't an accurate way to determine the date...

also the census should in the extended tech tree...the census was a powerful tool in helping the romans to develop

urban ranger you don't always need paper to make a map...you could do it on cloth or an animal skin, but as far as i know you pretty much always need paper for printing, so it should be

paper --> printing

	17-08-2001 12:37									#25
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quote: Originally posted by Urban Ranger One big thing that's missing from Civ 3 ancient tree is paper. Writing -> Paper -> Literacy, Mapmaking

I concur with Korn that paper is not essential before printing. Many early alternatives were found for scrolls and maps. The Egyptians, for example, learned how to mash reeds into papyrus.

	18-08-2001 11:20									#26
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Yeah you don't need paper to make maps on, though you do require skilled mapmakers, which means you need literacy, which means you need paper, more or less.

	18-08-2001 12:28									#27
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quote: Originally posted by Urban RangerYeah you don't need paper to make maps on, though you do require skilled mapmakers, which means you need literacy, which means you need paper, more or less.

you don't need paper for literacy...clay tablets certainly come to mind...i mean the babylonians weren't illiterate were they?

	18-08-2001 16:19									#28
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For techs such as Astronomy and Map Making, it may seem somewhat arbitrary where you put them in the tree. There was Astronomy before there was an extensive understanding of Mathematics (from our present point of view), and certainly Paper made it possible to produce the demanded quantity of maps for seafaring nations. Nonetheless I think that these two techs are dealt with in a proper manner.
For a little Astronomy you need a little knowledge of Mathematics. When you learn more about Math, you can do more Astronomy. Therefore, the causality is correct.
With regard to Map Making, the question is when did this technology began to have a major impact on human civilization. IMHO map making already had a significant impact with land maps, so in my tree I assigned no naval units to Map Making. Only combined with The Canoe does it lead to Seafaring which allows Triremes. In Civ3, which has less techs, several discoveries (Map Making, The Canoe and Seafaring) are combined into one.