14-08-2001 07:31									#1
	Middle Ages: changes in causality Support Apolyton, pre-order Civilization IV

Monotheism
Civ2: Philosophy, Polytheism | Fundamentalism, Theology
Civ3: last era | Chivalry, Theology
Ribannah says (Ethics): Chivalry, Mythology | Fundamentalism, Theology

Feudalism
Civ2: Monarchy, Warrior Code | Chivalry, Theology
Civ3: last era | Chivalry, Invention
Ribannah says: Monarchy, Warrior Code (->Archery) | Chivalry, (Trias Politica->) Democracy

Engineering
Civ2: Construction, The Wheel | Invention, Sanitation
Civ3: last era | Invention
Ribannah says: University, The Wheel | Empiricism, Gunpowder, Mechanics

Theology
Civ2: Feudalism, Monotheism | -
Civ3: Monotheism | Education, Printing Press
Ribannah says: Ethics, Philosophy | Humanism, Empiricism(, (Trias Politica ->) Democracy

Chivalry
Civ2: Feudalism, Horseback Riding | Leadership
Civ3: Feudalism, Monotheism | -
Ribannah says: Feudalism, Horseback Riding | Ethics, Leadership

Invention
Civ2: Engineering, Literacy | Democracy, Gunpowder, Steam Engine
Civ3: Engineering, Feudalism | Gunpowder
Ribannah says (Empiricism): Engineering, Humanism | Steam Engine, Theory of Gravity

Printing Press
Civ2: - | -
Civ3: Theology | Democracy
Ribannah says: Literacy, The Mill | Nationalism, Telecommunication

Music Theory
Civ2: - | -
Civ3: Education | -
Ribannah says (Arts): Literacy, Philosophy | (Biology ->) Ecology; Genetics, Romanticism

Education
Civ2 (University): Mathematics, Philosophy | Chemistry, Economics, Theory of Gravity
Civ3: Theology | Astronomy, Banking, Music Theory
Ribannah says (University): Mathematics, Philosophy | Chemistry, Economics, Engineering

Gunpowder
Civ2: Invention, Iron Working | Explosives, Leadership, Metallurgy
Civ3: Invention | Chemistry
Ribannah says: Engineering, Iron Working (; Medicine -> Alchemy) | Explosives, Leadership

Democracy
Civ2: Banking, Invention | Conscription, Espionage, Recycling
Civ3: Banking, Printing Press | Free Artistry
Ribannah says: Feudalism (; Theology -> Trias Politica), Nationalism | (Human Rights ->) Labor Union

Banking
Civ2: The Republic, Trade | Democracy, Economics, Industrialization
Civ3: Education | Democracy, Economics
Ribannah says: The Republic, Trade | Colonialism, Economics

Astronomy
Civ2: Mathematics, Mysticism | Navigation, Theory of Gravity
Civ3: Education | Navigation, Physics
Ribannah says: Mathematics | Navigation, Optics

Chemistry
Civ2: Medicine, University | Explosives, Refining
Civ3: Gunpowder | Metallurgy, Physics
Ribannah says: Medicine, University | Atomic Theory, Explosives

Free Artistry
Civ2: - | -
Civ3: Democracy | next era
Ribannah says (Romanticism): Arts, Nationalism | Communism, (Liberalism -> Socialism ->) Labor Union

Economics
Civ2: Banking, University | The Corporation
Civ3: Banking | next era
Ribannah says: Banking, University | The Corporation, (Liberalism -> Socialism ->) Labor Union

Navigation
Civ2: Astronomy, Seafaring | Amphibious Warfare, Physics
Civ3: Astronomy | next era
Ribannah says: Astronomy, Seafaring | Amphibious Warfare, Magnetism

Physics
Civ2: Literacy, Navigation | Atomic Theory, Magnetism, Steam Engine
Civ3: Astronomy, Chemistry | Magnetism, Theory of Gravity
Ribannah says (Mechanics): Engineering, The Mill | Magnetism, Steam Engine, Theory of Gravity

Metallurgy
Civ2: Gunpowder, University | Conscription, Electricity
Civ3: Chemistry | Military Tradition
Ribannah says: (Iron Working; Medicine ->) Alchemy, (Monarchy; Trade ->) The Guild | Electricity

Theory of Gravity
Civ2: Astronomy, University | Atomic Theory, Flight
Civ3: Physics | next era
Ribannah says: Empiricism, Mechanics | Flight

Magnetism
Civ2: Iron Working, Physics | Electricity
Civ3: Physics | next era
Ribannah says: Mechanics, Navigation | Colonialism, Electricity

Military Tradition
Civ2 (Tactics): Leadership | Amphibious Warfare, Guerilla Warfare, Machine Tools, Mobile Warfare
Civ3: Metallurgy | next era
Ribannah says (Tactics): Leadership, Optics | Amphibious Warfare, Mobile Warfare

Last edited by Ribannah on 14-08-2001 at 16:41

	17-08-2001 20:39									#2
	Support Apolyton, buy Alpha Centauri

I more or less agree with your tech tree, but maybe this is mostly because I don't like the new one. I had a bit of trouble with the meanings of the italics and arrows, but here are a couple of changes I would make.

How does fuedalism contribute to democracy?

And what do Arts(or Music Theory) have to do with ecology and genetics?

	17-08-2001 21:01									#3
	Re: Middle Ages: changes in causality Support Apolyton, buy GURPS/ Alpha Centauri

Those I do not agree with:

quote: Originally posted by Ribannah Monotheism Civ2: Philosophy, Polytheism | Fundamentalism, Theology Civ3: last era | Chivalry, Theology Ribannah says (Ethics): Chivalry, Mythology | Fundamentalism, Theology

Ethics is something different from religion and certainly has not evolved from chivalry - see "Nikomachean Ethics" by Aristotle

And chivalry may be seen as arguably developing from religion, as it was religious code applied to warfare

quote: Engineering Civ2: Construction, The Wheel | Invention, Sanitation Civ3: last era | Invention Ribannah says: University, The Wheel | Empiricism, Gunpowder, Mechanics

First universities started to show up in Europe around 11th century. Plato's Academy was not university - university is a gathering of teachers and students, not a group of students gathered around one or two famous wise men (and disapearing after their death).

Engineering was invented much earlier.

quote: Theology Civ2: Feudalism, Monotheism | - Civ3: Monotheism | Education, Printing Press Ribannah says: Ethics, Philosophy | Humanism, Empiricism(, (Trias Politica ->) Democracy

Once again, the link between philosophy, theology and humanism is weak one at best. Actually, the societies that excelled in philosophy or humanism were either atheistic (Greeks) or rebelled against theology (reneissance Italy)

quote: Chivalry Civ2: Feudalism, Horseback Riding | Leadership Civ3: Feudalism, Monotheism | - Ribannah says: Feudalism, Horseback Riding | Ethics, Leadership

See my comments on Monotheism

quote: Music Theory Civ2: - | - Civ3: Education | - Ribannah says (Arts): Literacy, Philosophy | (Biology ->) Ecology; Genetics, Romanticism

I fail to understand why music theory leads to biology, ecology and genetics.

Other than that I do not have any major reservations. However I do not find the Firaxis tree particularly flawed either. I like however that it is not that overgrown.

	18-08-2001 17:14									#4
	Re: Re: Middle Ages: changes in causality Put an end to popups!

quote: Originally posted by Martinus Ethics is something different from religion and certainly has not evolved from chivalry - see "Nikomachean Ethics" by Aristotle And chivalry may be seen as arguably developing from religion, as it was religious code applied to warfare

Chivalry was a little more than that. As put by the Encyclozine:

"Chivalry can be defined as the sworn moral and behavioural code of conduct
governing knights during the Middle Ages; its qualities included: honour, courage, gallantry, chastity, courtesy, generosity, and loyalty, among others. In later time, the chivalric idea came to form the basis of gentlemanly behaviour."

Chivalry was important because it brought order to the chaos that surrounded the feudal medieval times.

In my tree it does arrive from religion, too, since religion is needed to arrive at Feudalism. Ethics is the idea that this code of conduct should apply to everyone. With that comes the thought that other peoples should live by your values, too. For that reason I chose to place the discovery of Ethics at the time of the Crusades (hence the crusader as a unit with Ethics).

Of course there were ethics since the beginning of time, so the placement in the tree is by definition open to discussion. The idea is to place it when it had a major impact.

quote: First universities started to show up in Europe around 11th century. Plato's Academy was not university - university is a gathering of teachers and students, not a group of students gathered around one or two famous wise men (and disapearing after their death).

And the point is?

quote: Engineering was invented much earlier.

Again, there was Engineering since the beginning of human civilization, and the idea is to find a point of major impact. The University stands for a more systematic approach to research, which gave Engineering a big boost and led to many inventions.

quote: Once again, the link between philosophy, theology and humanism is weak one at best. Actually, the societies that excelled in philosophy or humanism were either atheistic (Greeks) or rebelled against theology (reneissance Italy)

This rebellion is precisely why Theology is a prerequisite for Humanism. The link show an incentive rather than a technological requirement.

quote: I fail to understand why music theory leads to biology, ecology and genetics.

It doesn't, you probably missed that in my tree I have Arts instead of the rather limited Music Theory. The wish to correctly picture the human body (and animals, and nature in general) incited the scientific study of the object(s).