17-08-2001 03:40									#1
	Buying military units from other civilisations... Enter the AD-FREE zone

An interesting idea here. Not in the sense of just buying another unit from a civilisation, but paying for them to manufacture and sell you a unit, for example, if a less advanced civilisation wanted to buy 6 tank units from another less advanced civilisation, which would totally and utterly turn the tide of war, would it be possible to buy (probably at significant cost) these units and have them delivered. The civilisation would then construct 6 tank units and deliver them to the other nation and collect his money.

What do you reckon?

	17-08-2001 03:52									#2
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It's certainly an interesting idea - the only problem with it for me would be the AI's ability to cope with such a system. Would the AI know how many units it needed to win a war? Like hell it would. In the same way, when players agree to these deals, they do so for a strategic purpose - usually to shift the balance of power - I have been in several SMAC PBEMs when unit purchase (arranged between players, of course) turned the tide of the game completely.

Still, if implemented, it would certainly be a worthwhile feature. It has plenty of historical preference (the Nazis' involvement in the Spanish Civil War comes to mind) though it may complicate matters where the AI is concerned.

	17-08-2001 04:04									#3
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Definately an interesting idea.

I recall playing many a game of SMAX and developing export versions of some of my weapons systems and donating them to factions who were fighting the same enemies as I was. A lot of fun really.

	17-08-2001 04:04									#4
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Well yeah, it is a good concept if used properly, and it would certainly be nice if the AI knew how to utilise this feature. Although it shouldn't be cheap. And the more advanced the unit is relative to the civs own tech level, the more expensive it should be (to the point of virtually unaffordable). It could be the ultimate way to buy favours (trading rights to valuable commodities as well). The feature should be written in and the AI should be programmed to be able to deal with it!

	17-08-2001 04:08									#5
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I suppose this could also apply to the new 'unique units' coming out. The Americans handing over MIGs for a price would certainly make for an interesting game, and may prove a further complexity to attend to diplomatically. Of course, nothing's stopping you using this in MP anyway....I fear, however, that it could just end up becoming another way to exploit and manipulate the poor AI.

	17-08-2001 04:09									#6
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Yeah, I am suggesting that this becomes an 'official' feature and these agreements are properly formalised. Something else to put on the bargaining table...

	17-08-2001 04:14									#7
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Well let us hope that the AI is advanced enough in Civ3 to deal with all these negotiations that will be taking place; I expect it will be, and thus I am sure it could handle itself when negotiating with contracts to supply high-tech military equipment. It happens in the real world when you think about it all the time, US selling weaponry to Israel or UK, Russia selling equipment to Middle East. It could also be a perfect way to be at war with someone as well. Use a puppet and keep them supplied with units and just lurk in the background and profit...very Machiavellian

	17-08-2001 04:23									#8
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hah! I like you sig I agree it would be hard to program for but it could probably be done for example the AI would know how powerful you are know how powerful he is and work out how much more it needs to win?? (could work)
Talking of cheating AI I was playing civ2 today and I had a good 3/4 of my army in one city (stupid but noone had nukes by then) and the Carthaginians discovered rocketry changed wonders from cure for cancer or something and built Manhattan's Project next turn and on that turn somehow managed to make a nuke (cheat cheat cheat ) and hit my city which by the way was nowhere near them probably just within range of a nuke. They'd never even seen the city and yet they knew that my army was there.
So I loaded the autosaved game and in my turn moved my entire army out of the city on transports and in their turn they bombed a city half-way around the globe which coincedentally had a large portion of my army in it itself??
I was playing on emperor so maybe it cheats an awful lot on that.

BTW in my turn after that I contacted them and they wanted peace so I said OK (They were twice my size) and They even wanted to swap techs so of course I got rocketry off them (revenge) and I offered and alliance ( I was at war with Russia) and they wanted me to cancel my alliance with this tiny weak nation so fine, I'm now allied with them and their attitude towards me is Worshipful

	17-08-2001 04:31									#9
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hey , we are not a puppet..... ... let's not discuss this here.... on-topic : the Idea is great . though I don't seem to understand why should the costs rise for more primitive civilizations . in real life , guns are sold for the same price to governments and terrorists working against your enemy , and for most cases the more "primitive" terrorists are getting the guns cheaper ! so you don't actually have to discover industrial mechanics to get AK-47s for your infantry . you could buy them , and of course you would afford them with that diamond mine you have on the territory of your single city ....

	17-08-2001 04:34									#10
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Darkknight - if only it were that simple. I suppose on the surface, that is what the AI has to consider, but when you look at it, it goes deeper than that. Though the AI is perfectly capable of such a thought process, there are numerous other factors it has to consider, namely:

If it is buying from another civ:

"How much can I afford to pay for these units?"
"Would the other civ in the deal gain an advantage significantly above and beyond my own?"
"Do I really need these units?"

If the AI civ is selling:

"Would the exchange of units result in a significant shift in the balance of power against my civ?"
"Do I need the cash?"
"Will my production let me afford to build the units in question?"

An incorrect calculation in any of the above areas could result in the inevitable fall of the AI civ. How many times has a new feature in a civ game (I'm talking mainly SMAC here) completely flummoxed the AI - usually fatally?

	17-08-2001 04:35									#11
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Judging from what I've seen on the diplomacy scenes this seems like something that could work without drastic changes. It would be nice to build and sell/give away tanks to a backward and poor civilization that's fighting one of your enemies that you don't want to go to war with yourself.

It would be much like the cold war (Vietnam, Afghanistan, contras and so forth). it's not like my peaceful and moral civilization would fight ourself. We pay some sucker to do the work for us.

	17-08-2001 04:40									#12
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Well the thing is, the more advanced the unit relative to you and your foe, the higher the price is because the greater effect it would have on your war effort. Imagine the Zulus and the Aztecs battling on some continent somewhere with Eagle Warriors and Impis, with their cities defended by spearmen. Imagine if the Aztecs bought just a single stealth bomber from the Americans up north and the dramatic impact this would have on the war between the two nations. However a musketeer would not have the same impact...but such a stealth bomber wouldn't be worth as much to a nation who has fairly sophisticated industrial age technology though...although yeah, negotiation in exchange for resources would be an important feature as well...

	17-08-2001 05:26									#13
	Avatar Enlargement: We've got the solution

How about if the value of the unit was based on the tech levels of all the civs in the game? Therefore a unit which only one civ has the ability to make is more expensive than a unit that say, 3 or 4 civs can manufacture.

	17-08-2001 05:57									#14
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This is a great idea, but IMO only practical in multiplayer games. Then your human allies know what you are talking about. I doubt that a computer could tell the importance of a unit it manufactures for another civ. Think of it this way:

Rome (you) and Carthage (AI, builder) make a deal. Carthage will construct 5 bombers for your pre-Industrial age, yet very rich, civ. They agree. The bombers are delivered and you pay them. Carthage, although advanced, has not fully upgraded its defense force. You notice this after spying on them. You arm your bombers with, say, a nuclear bomb you purchased from another civ. You fly the bombers over to their civ, nuking Carthage, and bomb out 4 other cities. You quickly ferry units over and you capture a whopping 5 cities. Their capital is destroyed and they lose control of their government. Meanwhile you get back double or more of your money and 5 advanced techs. Ta da!

	17-08-2001 06:06									#15
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interesting concept. it works well in multiplayer civ2.

if u could build a transport and some tanks you could sell it to a friend.

	17-08-2001 07:42									#16
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The thing is Provost the Aztecs won't know anything about the bombers. They won't know how to fly them, they won't have any place to land them, and they can't maintain them.

So there must be a cap on how much more advanced a tech a civ can buy. I'd say at most one epoch apart.

	17-08-2001 13:53									#17
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quote: I suppose this could also apply to the new 'unique units' coming out. The Americans handing over MIGs for a price would certainly make for an interesting game, and may prove a further complexity to attend to diplomatically.

I agree.

This idea (if implemented correctly) certainly has the potential to balance many of the annoyances that will be broght on by the new "unique units" option.

How many countries in the world today actually manufacture their own high-tech fighters / bombers from scratch and how many purchase them from allies (whether Migs or F-16s or whatever).

If I am playing as an ally of the U.S. then I want to think that they will sell me the most advanced weaponry even if I can't get the tech. off them to build it myself.

This would also add a nice twist to the diplomacy, you would tend to want to stay friends with your weapons suppliers.

	07-10-2001 21:03									#18
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Yeah yeah, buy/sell units, to be advanced or not to be advanced...
but remember this, in CIVII if u gifted 3-5 units to an AI civ, it eventually will discover its secrets and gain the tech to produce those units.

	07-10-2001 22:27									#19
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Maybe you can request military units during negotiations with other CIVs? Maybe this is already possible. Perhaps you can demand units in return for certain goods.

	08-10-2001 00:59									#20
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I doubt even the AI will sell stealth bombers to an iron age tribe, unless it is really very stupid indeed, and the tribe won't be able to afford such an extravagance. But IMHO buying/exchanging civ specific units might be very useful in rounding out the offensive/defensive elements of an army.

Of course there is another way of playing this game. In SMAC I used to give an increasingly hostile neighbor hundreds of crappy outmoded units in a single turn, making the recipient like me and yet ruining their economy with the escalating military costs.

David