22-08-2001 06:40									#61
	Europe - Where is it ?? Support Apolyton, buy Civilization III: Complete

alway sperplexed me why Europe is regarded as a seprarate continent whilts connected directly to Asia. Obviously it was done by Westerners who didnt want to be included under the banner of Asians... Reaaly Europe is Asia. Amountain range (Urals) shouldnt be a continent divider . But then I guess before the suez canal was built some people might argue that Africa was the n connected to Asia and it too should be a separate continent!! Or how bout North and South America... But at least they now have Canals, perhpas we should get them to build a canal along the border of Europe so we can know exactly where the border of Asia/Europe is

	22-08-2001 10:15									#62
	Re: Europe - Where is it ?? Lose 30 kilos (of popups)

quote: Originally posted by Rasputin alway sperplexed me why Europe is regarded as a seprarate continent whilts connected directly to Asia. Obviously it was done by Westerners who didnt want to be included under the banner of Asians...

You got it. In the real old day when you said Asian you were talking about Korea, China, Japan Etc. and not India

quote: Reaaly Europe is Asia. Amountain range (Urals) shouldnt be a continent divider.

I would think all countries east of the Urals would be in Asia, but this book I have said all of Stan countries are in Europe.

quote: But then I guess before the suez canal was built some people might argue that Africa was the n connected to Asia and it too should be a separate continent!!

They still had the Nile River before the Canal

quote: Or how bout North and South America... But at least they now have Canals, perhpas we should get them to build a canal along the border of Europe so we can know exactly where the border of Asia/Europe is

Sound like a good idea, good luck.

	22-08-2001 11:06									#63
	Re: Re: Europe - Where is it ?? Support Apolyton, buy Galactic Civilizations

quote: Originally posted by joseph1944 They still had the Nile River before the Canal

The Nile river didn't connect the seas. Only in CIV can rivers run from one ocean to another.

	22-08-2001 11:10									#64
	Got spare money?

Well if you are using a book that says that the all the Stan countries are in Europe than why not Turkey??

Turkey is closer to the rest of Europe, the Stans touch CHINA!!! Which is way eastern Asia.

How can you deny that Turkey isn't in Europe when
THEY ARE APPLYING FOR MEMBERSHIP TO THE EU!!!

Most people regard Turkey as part of Europe though the lifestyle is different that shouldn't make a difference.

So as far as I am concerned if your book says that the Stans are in Europe than Turkey is too.

	23-08-2001 03:01									#65
	Lose 30 kilos (of popups)

quote: Originally posted by CIA_Operative Well if you are using a book that says that the all the Stan countries are in Europe than why not Turkey?? Turkey is closer to the rest of Europe, the Stans touch CHINA!!! Which is way eastern Asia. How can you deny that Turkey isn't in Europe when THEY ARE APPLYING FOR MEMBERSHIP TO THE EU!!! Most people regard Turkey as part of Europe though the lifestyle is different that shouldn't make a difference. So as far as I am concerned if your book says that the Stans are in Europe than Turkey is too.

Turkey is also in NATO, that however does not change were they are located on planet Earth. On planet Earth they are located in Asia, If you cannot understand I don't know what else to tell you. Go talk to your Geography teacher maybe he/she can tell you. Turkey is south of the Black Sea. On the north-east coast they border Georgia and Armenia. East border is Iran, south-east is Iraq, south is Syria, North-west is Bulgaria and Greece.
The Sea of Marmara is the divide between Europe and Asia as is the Black Sea plus the Turkey and Iran north border in the divide between Asia and Europe. Only Kazakhstan, Kyrgyzstan, and Tajtkistan has a common border with China.

	23-08-2001 03:24									#66
	Support Apolyton buy from Amazon

Do you know what the EU stands for????

You have to be apart of Europe to even apply to the EU so how can you negate the fact that Turkey wants to join the EU and say that they are not part of Europe.

The Stans are way farther from Europe than Turkey is so if you're saying that just because Turkey touches Southwest Asia it isn't part of Europe so does that mean that just because Panama touches Columbia it isn't in North America? At least Turkey has a little part in Europe and yes they ARE IN EUROPE!!!!

THEY ARE APPLYING TO THE FRICKEN EU!!!!!!!

	23-08-2001 04:14									#67
	Support Apolyton, buy Galactic Civilizations: Deluxe Edition

quote: Right, I apology. I haven't taken into acount Armenia, Georgia, Azerbaidjan, Kazakhstan (a small part stands before Oural) etc. But I still can't count more than 44 countries in Europe, 45 with Russia.

First of all, it's Ural, not Oural. Second of all, this is what REALLY gets me mad. 45 with Russia. Why are you excluding Russia? I'm Russian, and I have noticed the 174091375th thing Americans do that Europeans don't that makes me mad. They forget that Russia has been, is, and always will be a part of Europe. It's not all in Europe, but 80% of its population is squeezed in the 1/4 of country that is in Europe. RUSSIA IS A EUROPEAN COUNTRY. Thank you.

	23-08-2001 04:23									#68
	Support Apolyton, buy Call to Power 2

quote: Originally posted by CIA_Operative Do you know what the EU stands for???? You have to be apart of Europe to even apply to the EU so how can you negate the fact that Turkey wants to join the EU and say that they are not part of Europe. The Stans are way farther from Europe than Turkey is so if you're saying that just because Turkey touches Southwest Asia it isn't part of Europe so does that mean that just because Panama touches Columbia it isn't in North America? At least Turkey has a little part in Europe and yes they ARE IN EUROPE!!!! THEY ARE APPLYING TO THE FRICKEN EU!!!!!!!

I will lay you odd that if Canada, Australia, New Zealand and the US told them they wanted to part of the Union, they would change their rules in flat second. Being a member of something does not change where they are located. A very small piece of Turkey laid in Europe, so the Union said OK let's let them in. It no bid deal.
The author of my Atlas is William R. Mead Professor Emeritus of Geography, University College London, England. Why don't you write him and tell him he made a big mistake about Turkey location. Our disscussion on this matter is close.

	23-08-2001 04:55									#69
	Increase the size of your Attachments

FYI there isn't any bit of EU legislation or any treaty that states that EU members have to be geographically situated in Europe.

	23-08-2001 05:18									#70
	Tired of ads?

quote: Originally posted by Colon FYI there isn't any bit of EU legislation or any treaty that states that EU members have to be geographically situated in Europe.

Thank you. My knowledge of the EU is zero, except that it is economic trade union as the Canada, US, and Mexico free trade zone is.

	23-08-2001 05:33									#71
	Support Apolyton, buy Alpha Centauri

I prefer to think of the continent as the Eurasian continent. Dividing it into "Europe" and "Asia" is arbitary anyway, and as we have seen is prone to argument based on different definitions of "Europe".

	23-08-2001 06:11									#72
	Get a bigger avatar today!

Joseph, no problem.

The EU and NAFTA aren’t comparable however, NAFTA is a free trade zone as many others (zero tariffs, no import quotas etc) but the EU goes much farther than that.
Besides having free movement of goods and services (as the goal of NAFTA is) it also has free movement of capital and labour and a customs union. Next to that the EU has institutions (parliament, court of justice) and legislation superior to that of the national level, and that impact areas beyond the narrow economic ones.

Star mouse, you're right, Eurasia is better considered as one continent.

	23-08-2001 07:12									#73
	Tired of ads?

quote: Originally posted by Colon Joseph, no problem. The EU and NAFTA aren't comparable however, NAFTA is a free trade zone as many others (zero tariffs, no import quotas etc) but the EU goes much farther than that. Besides having free movement of goods and services (as the goal of NAFTA is) it also has free movement of capital and labour and a customs union. Next to that the EU has institutions (parliament, court of justice) and legislation superior to that of the national level, and that impact areas beyond the narrow economic ones.

If you will a second/mini UN? Only this has some teethe

	23-08-2001 07:17									#74
	Support Apolyton, buy Galactic Civilizations: Deluxe Edition

I have done some more research and from what I can come up with is this,

The World Book Encyclopedia 1988 Edition (because that's all my family can afford) Lists Turkey as part of Europe, and from what else I can gather I believe that Turkey is in the same situation as Russia, and Egypt that it is in two different continents. Russia being in Asia and Europe and Egypt being in Africa and Asia, Turkey is too in Europe and in Asia so I guess our argument has been settled we are both winners.

	23-08-2001 07:26									#75
	Lose 30 kilos (of popups)

I also have brought this as more proof:

quote: Turkey is officially, politically and geographically considered part of both the European continent and Asian continent. The portion of Turkey west of the Bosporus (colored a darker gray) and bordering Bulgaria is geographically a part of Europe, while the lighter portion of the country (the largest part) is part of Asia.

Here's the site I found it on: http://www.graphicmaps.com/webimage...ope/europea.htm

	23-08-2001 07:45									#76
	Full PM-box? Change here!

The World Book Encyclopedia lists Turkey as a European nation.

Joseph 1944, you even admit that Turkey has territory in Europe, which it does. What other criteria do you need to declare it European? True, MOST of Turkey is in Asia (the part formerly known as Asia Minor, in ancient times), but the same can be said of Russia. And as Andreiguy will tell you, Russia is most definitely European.

	23-08-2001 07:49									#77
	Support Apolyton buy from Amazon

Joseph,
"If you will a second/mini UN? Only this has some teethe"

Depends on how you view the UN, but I wouldn't consider both to be similar because the UN doesn't legislate.
The EU is really a strange beast actually, it isn't a federal country like US yet it's more advanced than most confederations like CIS or the British Commonwealth.

	23-08-2001 08:20									#78
	Lose 30 kilos (of popups)

quote: Originally posted by joseph1944 The author of my Atlas is William R. Mead Professor Emeritus of Geography, University College London, England. Why don't you write him and tell him he made a big mistake about Turkey location.

Talk to him.

	23-08-2001 14:56									#79
	Inflate your Upload Space

quote: Originally posted by joseph1944 A very small piece of Turkey laid in Europe, so the Union said OK let's let them in. It's no big deal.

It is a big deal, and the eventual joining of Turkey in the EU is giving quite some stuff for discussion because of the political status quo in Turkey. That's why Turkey has not been given a promise for a membership, they have been stipulated conditions. Turkey is the only Asian country being a member of NATO. Keeping them out of the "islamic"sphere is one of the reasons why Turkey could join the EU. That should appeal to you americans aswell.

And the EU, dear CIA-Operative (you s.o.b.), is not something fricken. maybe you are just chicken. It has given us europeans peace and prosperity for over the last half of a century. It's better to see our governmentleaders on the frontpages smiling together, then to read about war.

	23-08-2001 15:27									#80
	Full PM-box? Change here!

quote: Originally posted by Vrank Prins It's better to see our governmentleaders on the frontpages smiling together, then to read about war.

You can say that again

	23-08-2001 15:43									#81
	Put an end to popups!

quote: Originally posted by CIA_Operative Do you know what the EU stands for???? You have to be apart of Europe to even apply to the EU so how can you negate the fact that Turkey wants to join the EU and say that they are not part of Europe.

Do you know what NATO stands for? North Atlantic Treaty Organisation.

Well, I go to the seaside here in Poland every year. I did not know it was the freaking Atlantic Ocean!

	23-08-2001 15:49									#82
	Increase the size of your Attachments

quote: Originally posted by Martinus I did not know it was the freaking Atlantic Ocean!

That's what the italians think too when they look at the mediterranian sea

	23-08-2001 23:47									#83
	Got spare money?

To Vrank Prins I believe you misunderstood me in saying fricken EU, I agree whole heartedlee that the EU has brought much prosparity to Europe, heck I had to simulate it for school. I just used that adjective to further describe it, its as much as saying the brown car. I have no hate for the EU, I personally think it should become more of a federalized state to have more power.

	24-08-2001 13:25									#84
	Support Apolyton, buy Galactic Civilizations

CIA-operative, okay , no offense taken. I know I can react pretty strong when it comes to that subject, Sorry

	24-08-2001 15:51									#85
	Support Apolyton, buy Alpha Centauri

quote:

Originally posted by Martinus
I did not know it was the freaking Atlantic Ocean!

quote: Originally posted by Vrank Prins That's what the italians think too when they look at the mediterranian sea

EhEh

You know, we in Italy weren't considered a main war theater in case cold war become hot.

Germany did, as an easy door to attack all Central Europe, then North Europe and west to France and Spain/Portugal.

The North Atlantic was the main cargo connection between USA and Great Britain / Europe

As WWI and WWII submarines battle teached, USA can lost every link to European nation, GB included, if they lost the North Atlantic control. Most of Nato effort was centered around that axis, hence the name.

Adding that we spent half of the WWII on the enemy front, after the war USA mostly considered us an Ally just to keep at bay the Comunist Yugoslavia and to have a firm control over Mediterrain area (also not far from North Africa and Middle East)

Only during last years, while the military pressure almost vanished in Central europe, Italy advanced in NATO consideration, but so did the concept of European Union coordinated Defense. May be we'll have a different scenario in about 10 to 20 years from now...

	24-08-2001 16:37									#86
	Get a bigger avatar today!

I have an impression I have been misunderstood.

I was just trying to say the name of an organisation is not 100% relevant to its membership. So a non-European but close-to-Europe country (like Turkey) may join EU, and a non-Atlantic but close-to-Atlantic country (like Poland or Italy) may join NATO.

So the argument that Turkey is (geographically speaking) an European country BECAUSE it applied to EU is irrelevant.

	24-08-2001 17:00									#87
	Support Apolyton, buy Alpha Centauri

quote: and can you see the power of france coming to bear! imagine production+comercial, it can just rape europe

In all previous civ like games where the builders AI always beaten down by the conquer AI. SO I think that actually the Romans(production+industrious is good combo for the typical AI warmonger startegy). I think that even with culture the warmonger AI will still win: in all civ like games is the conquer AI better then the builder AI so it is likely that a builder AI is harder to make and will because of that be always weaker + a temple can't stop a big military invasion(yes there will be some riots at first but don't forget taht you can use your units to make them content in some goverments).

My prediction: the warmonger AI will quite always beat the builder AI, so you will often end up with the same civs.

	24-08-2001 19:11									#88
	Support Apolyton, buy Alpha Centauri

quote: Originally posted by Martinus I was just trying to say the name of an organisation is not 100% relevant to its membership. So a non-European but close-to-Europe country (like Turkey) may join EU, and a non-Atlantic but close-to-Atlantic country (like Poland or Italy) may join NATO.

And how did Israel get into the Eurovision Song Contest? That really scared me.

	24-08-2001 19:33									#89
	Support Apolyton, buy GURPS/ Alpha Centauri

quote: And how did Israel get into the Eurovision Song Contest? That really scared me.

The Brits had an important role in the creation of israel after WWII and most inhabitants of Israel are imigrants from Europe(after WWII wanted they there own country so they will be save if something like WWII happens again in Europe) I think that that is the reason why they are included.

	24-08-2001 21:00									#90
	Support Apolyton, buy Civilization 2

quote: Originally posted by J Bytheway And how did Israel get into the Eurovision Song Contest? That really scared me.

Now that you mention it, a bit of an extrapolation.
I do think it's possible that we will see that,, when "things" really have quiet down and been peacefully settled between Israël and Palestina,, in about 20 years Israel may request a membership for the EU and that they will be granted one. Israel, a bit like Turkey, is a fascinating mixture of the east and the west. Probably they consider themselves to be more western/european than eastern/asian. Everyone always relates more easier with the "winning" side than with the "loosing". But I don't think that's to be said of Israël , they have proven to be able to stand firmly on their own feet. It would be nice though to see them dancing on these same feet, with their neighbours (like we do in the EU) instead of kicking them around.