18-08-2001 08:12									#1
	The Poor Chariot Increase the size of your Attachments

The Poor chariot! It gets watered down everytime a new version of Civ comes out. In Civ I, its attack value was a 4, and in Civ II it was down to a 3.

This was more realistic. I used to go on rampages in Civ I, using chariots to knock off several other civs before they could build walls.

But now a 1?! Unless you are Egypt, they won't even be worth building. In Civ II, I never build horsemen(2/1/2) because they're not worth it (always end up with some from goodie huts, though). The new chariot is even weaker than a horseman!

I can't wait for Civ IV when the chariot attack value is 0, and it can only be used for defense.

Oh woe, oh woe are my poor chariots.

Of course you can always edit, I suppose.

	18-08-2001 10:11									#2
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Buddy, this time The Wheel is a starting tech and Horseback is the tech with pre-reqs...

	18-08-2001 10:26									#3
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One's just silly. It should be 3 or 4, but expensive to build, since chariots were afterall tanks of the ancient ages.

	18-08-2001 12:38									#4
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quote: Originally posted by Falconius But now a 1?! Unless you are Egypt, they won't even be worth building. In Civ II, I never build horsemen(2/1/2) because they're not worth it (always end up with some from goodie huts, though). The new chariot is even weaker than a horseman!

The attack-value is obviously at least two. From there have you got the idea that chariot attack-values is only one? Anyway, one can always edit those values in the rules.txt files, which have been promished to be much more accessible this time around - perhaps even with its own screen/interface.

	18-08-2001 13:08									#5
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Ralf

it comes from www.civ3.com in the new civ of the week preview they reveal that the normal chariot is 1.1.2 and that the egyptian war chariot is 2.1.2

	18-08-2001 13:17									#6
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quote: Originally posted by Urban Ranger One's just silly. It should be 3 or 4, but expensive to build, since chariots were afterall tanks of the ancient ages.

If chariots were all that great, how come Alexander the Great didn't ride into battle on one. That was one thing I never understood about Civ1 and Civ2, why were chariots all that great. Battles of all eras were won by the side which was the most mobile; strike first, hit a flank, shift troops to different points on the battlefield. When chariots appeared everyone was basically foot soldiers. As the ability to fight from horseback increased, the chariot became a relic. A man on horseback was more mobile than one on a chariot, just as the charioteer was over a foot soldier.

If you want to give the title of "tank of the ancient ages" to any unit, try the Alexandrean Greek Companion Cavalry. These were truly shock troops of the first order and were the model for the Kataphractoi Cavalry of the later ancient times and eventually leading to the Knight of the Middle Ages.

	18-08-2001 13:31									#7
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quote: Originally posted by korn469 it comes from www.civ3.com in the new civ of the week preview they reveal that the normal chariot is 1.1.2 and that the egyptian war chariot is 2.1.2

Your right. I should have updated myself before replying. Anyway - an attack-value of only one seems low in context of Civ-2, yes. But they have probably adjusted the whole unit ADM-scale + defense-values for military city-improvements downwards to avoid inflationary numbers. The important thing is if the correlation between above factors is reasonably OK - and Im sure they are.

	18-08-2001 18:48									#8
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I agree. I was surprised myself to find that it was only 1! Yikes! Even if it's a starting tech, it should be, at the very least a 3. Who in the right mind would attack with a value of 1? I would much rather keep the chariot as a scout unit, which is exactly what an attack factor of 1 makes it. I'm sure most players will use it as a scout, which is very unfortunate.

It must be a mistake. Firaxis?

	18-08-2001 20:17									#9
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There may be more to the combat model that hasn't been revealed. The attack factor could be the ability to to get a hit vs the defense factor. There could be different amounts of damage caused when a hit occurs. Say a warrior(1-1-1) is atacked by a chariot(1-1-2) in a plains square. The chariots would take say two hits to eliminate the warrior. Take the same situation in reverse the warrior could take 3-4 hits to eliminate the chariot.

The two special units revealed would be twice as likely to attain a hit, thus eliminate the opponent quicker than the normal units. This is more realistic, the Egyptian war charioteer or Babylonian Bowman do not cause anymore damage per hit than the normal units. But, they are twice as likely to hit than the normal units, better trained with their weapons and tactics.

This combat model eliminate the phalanx holding off the tank. The phalanx may hit the take, but need 20 hits to eliminate it. While the tank would need just one hit to eliminate the phalanx, and just about every other unit below infantryman. Then again the tank would need just a few hits(4-6) to eliminate another tank.

	18-08-2001 23:33									#10
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The fact that the chariot has an AV of 1 plus the fact that Babylonian bowmen are identical to Egyptian chariots are, in and by themselves, quite enough to make me consider they might have lost their mind at Firaxis. Sure, Sid Meier is a genius , but geniuses sometimes get insane , remember?

CivIII might well, instead of being the game of the year, become the disappointment of the decade.

	18-08-2001 23:48									#11
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quote: Originally posted by Comrade Tribune CivIII might well, instead of being the game of the year, become the disappointment of the decade.

I don't know... there is alot of strong competition for that title.

	18-08-2001 23:58									#12
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I think I know why the chariot attack strength is 1. You learn the wheel faster than in Civ2 and Civ1 and it should be weaker than a horseman which is probably 2 attack still.

	19-08-2001 00:12									#13
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quote: Originally posted by Osweld I don't know... there is alot of strong competition for that title.

Good one. However, to fall really deep, expectations have to be high. There might not be a game in years, where expectations will have been as high and, at the same time, disappointment as great. So I stand to my gloomy outlook.

	19-08-2001 02:13									#14
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CALM DOWN PEOPLE!

Like Swissy said, we don't know the whole combat model. What are the hitpoints for the chariot? I'll bet you that it has lots more HP than the warrior to represent the extra mobility. They have the same attack strength but the chariot can kill the warrior with fewer hits making it overall still stronger.

	19-08-2001 02:51									#15
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quote: Originally posted by The diplomat Like Swissy said, we don't know the whole combat model. What are the hitpoints for the chariot? I'll bet you that it has lots more HP than the warrior to represent the extra mobility. They have the same attack strength but the chariot can kill the warrior with fewer hits making it overall still stronger.

A distinct possibility. But telling us the attack and defence values of units without telling us what those values stand for is in itself not an act of great wisdom and discernment. So, unless otherwise informed, I assume the CivII model to be in place.

	19-08-2001 05:27									#16
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The war chariot was once a vital part in the ancient army. It is mentioned several times in Sun Tzu's Art of War, and the Rook on chessboards represents a war chariot with the word "Rook" being derived from the Persian for "war chariot".

I suspect that what we are looking at here is not a military unit in its own right, but something that must be stacked with something else. I have heard that the catapult can no longer attack on its own but needs support troops. What if the chariot we are looking at also works this way?

	19-08-2001 13:27									#17
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We'll just rebalance everything (ala MedMod) if its that bad.

	19-08-2001 13:53									#18
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I'll wait and see how the game works and how balanced it is before I complain and start edit things.

	19-08-2001 16:05									#19
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Gramphos,

Thank you - someone who agrees with me!

This is what I've been saying on another thread - instead of moaning about possible deficiencies in the game, why not wait until the damn thing is realeased? Then, if there are poor points, they can be raised. These Apolyton threads seem like a river of moans! . . .

quote: CivIII might well, instead of being the game of the year, become the disappointment of the decade.

Eh? It's going to be superb, stop moaning about it until you've seen it!

	19-08-2001 16:21									#20
	Re: Moaning Support Apolyton buy from Amazon

quote: Originally posted by ToD.MB This is what I've been saying on another thread - instead of moaning about possible deficiencies in the game, why not wait until the damn thing is realeased? Then, if there are poor points, they can be raised. These Apolyton threads seem like a river of moans! . . . Eh? It's going to be superb, stop moaning about it until you've seen it!

Yeah let's close off the forums until the game is released! No more moaning then for sure! :P