19-08-2001 05:55									#1
	Idea for Unit Customization/Creating Full PM-box? Change here!

I thought of an idea for creating units. It came to me when I was messing around in Civ2 customizing my units. I think you should be able to give units attack power over another, in Civ2 the only one I remember was the pikeman was 2x at horses. I think you should be able to create so a certain unit is stronger than any other unit, here is an example: An Apache helicopter or A-10 Tankiller plane (if you created them) should have an attack bonus on tanks, or archers should have an attack bonus on slow moving infantry like a warrior or swordsman. What do you think of this idea, if any of you have played Age of Empires 2, you'll know what I mean.

	19-08-2001 12:27									#2
	Got spare money?

I think that Firaxis isn't going to include SMAC's unit workshop in Civ3 so you're going to have to use what they give you or you're going to have to make units mods.

	19-08-2001 12:51									#3
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quote: Originally posted by Lord Magnus I think that Firaxis isn't going to include SMAC's unit workshop in Civ3 so you're going to have to use what they give you or you're going to have to make units mods.

You dont need a Unit Workshop to achieve what SK138 wants. Or put it differently: You dont need it in the game - you can tweak and change your units in the Rules.txt files instead (which Firaxis have promised to be much more accessible/userfriendly and, I hope, greatly extended this time around)

In Civ-2 one had access to "flags" contolling special advantages & restrictions on any unit. Se below:

; 000000000000001 = Two space visibility
; 000000000000010 = Ignore zones of control
; 000000000000100 = Can make amphibious assaults
; 000000000001000 = Submarine advantages/disadvantages
; 000000000010000 = Can attack air units (fighter)
; 000000000100000 = Ship must stay near land (trireme)
; 000000001000000 = Negates city walls (howitzer)
; 000000010000000 = Can carry air units (carrier)
; 000000100000000 = Can make paradrops
; 000001000000000 = Alpine (treats all squares as road)
; 000010000000000 = x2 on defense versus horse (pikemen)
; 000100000000000 = Free support for fundamentalism (fanatics)
; 001000000000000 = Destroyed after attacking (missiles)
; 010000000000000 = x2 on defense versus air (AEGIS)
; 100000000000000 = Unit can spot submarines

An extended/more flexible version of above is all what it takes.

	19-08-2001 13:27									#4
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I agree with Ralf...it's just a matter of modifying the rules, which will supposedly still be in easily customized files.

But the graphic representation does pose a problem for modders. How can they make animated, 3D units? 2D still artwork like in Civ2 was do-able, but this new stuff might make the custom appearance of units look very amateurish.

	19-08-2001 19:21									#5
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I have already posted my idea at the Civ Fanatics with some good replies, but since I find a thread on the topic here, let me repeat myself.

All throughout this site I've been reading about new MODs, units, advancements, govs, wonders and other stuff that make me dribble. And I hate to think, that so many of the bright concepts will, inevitably, be lost. Also most of the threads are bickering about : why not implement this and that... With a game of Civ type and caliber, there is no possibility to keep everybody (including the publishers) happy, BUT ONE.

Now, the idea is this:
Make CivIII an open-ended game. I'll resort to my favorite example - anyone seen Photoshop? Full of plug-ins? Small applets that enhance and expand it's capabilities? Why not make CivIII like this. And I'm not talking about MODs. Or Sims (though nearer). A plug-in for CivIII could be like a "brick" in the tech-tree. A single wonder, a unit or gov type, or a pack like a single advancement with two new units and one benefit. One of many similar files.

Inside your CivIII folder, there could be a sub-folder called "extensions". When you obtain such a brick (say, a new advancement), you just have to put it into this folder, and fire away. It would automatically be validated by the game, and inserted into an appropriate slot. No installation, no lousy txt files editing. Just plug-n-play. And only if you want to.

These files could be made by Firaxis (they know the code, have the 3D tools, anims, keep the balance of the game, hey we also have to support the company somehow, etc.) on the base of an internet user-poll on their website (what do WE FAITHFUL USERS want), and released as commercial product (CD as official expansions packs) or, for smaller packs like a single unit, obtainable through internet download section on non-commercial bases.

This way they'll always keep the buzz about the game - by constantly releasing new additions and not patches. Also, the small size of these "packs" would enable them to release stuff rather frequently.

The map, faction/nation and scenario editors would be ours to have fun with. They could also publish a scaled-down unit editor (for scenarios), though the user-graphics for non-professional units would be 2D (mock-ups), whereas they would make their units 3D with anims.

Of course, there would have to be a "plain vanilla" version of the game, for comparative or competitive (ladder) purposes. Also MP games would have to be the same in contents.

As for coding - these plug-ins are only sub-routines in the grand application program (engine) and a relative ease to code. This solution would replace the MODs-MODs-MODs rigid structure.

	19-08-2001 20:28									#6
	Get a bigger avatar today!

quote: Originally posted by Grim Legacy I agree with Ralf...it's just a matter of modifying the rules, which will supposedly still be in easily customized files.

I agree with Ralf, too. That is what I was talking about in my first post, it just needs a lot more abilities added to what Civ2 had.

quote: But the graphic representation does pose a problem for modders. How can they make animated, 3D units? 2D still artwork like in Civ2 was do-able, but this new stuff might make the custom appearance of units look very amateurish.

I don't think we'll see half as many created units for Civ3 that we saw in Civ2, but Call to Power had 3D animated units, and a lot of people did create some nice looking units, not all were animated, but I can go without the animation if I have to. Firaxis is trying to really improve the graphics of Civ3, but I feel that turn-based games don't need to have the greatest graphics, it is all about gameplay.

	19-08-2001 22:48									#7
	Lose 30 kilos (of popups)

Scrooge's idea is interesting but unfortunately impractical. While PhotoShop plugins are all filters that merely transforms a flat file, Civ 3 counterparts will be much more complicated. For starters, whenever something is added the AI must be overhualed to make use of this new feature, whether it is a new unit, a new wonder, a new rule, or a new civilisation advance.

Secondly, if it's up to Firaxis to release these "plugins," not everybody can get pleased, so we are back to square one. We have added a lot of complexity to the code but fails to achieve this goal. So, indivdual players must be empowered to make them, perhaps paying a nominal fee to Firaxis for the tools.

Thirdly, if you add a new rule, say, a new special ability for combat units. You then must go into the existing units and make modifications. For wonders, new code fragments must be somehow inserted so things will happen as they supposed to. For example, if you have just added Hoover Dam, the program must now check for this and adjust production accordingly.

It's probably doable, but will take a whole new approach, a complete rewrite of existing code, and a lot more added complexity.

Therefore the question is, "Is it worth it?"

	20-08-2001 17:40									#8
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quote: Originally posted by Urban Ranger ... the AI must be overhauled to make use of this new feature ... ... not everybody can get pleased ... ... new code fragments must be somehow ... ... will take a whole new approach ... Therefore the question is, "Is it worth it?"

1. Right now, while editing the units.txt and rules.txt you have to designate appropriate flags for the AIs to correctly interpret the new modifications. All of this comes to (discussed) AI overhaul and AI flags.

2. There has to be some kind of compromise, map / scenario / faction and unit mock-up editor (for scenarios) provided for the gamers; the rest for the company (oh, what we'd have done without The Company) to make profit and for the sake of consistency.

3. it's all sub-routines in correct "slots" - people will know how to use those and AI code could only get better.

4. Exactly, perhaps Civ 4 could be made so.

It's worth it, just by looking at the discussions on this forum. After this, the sky's the limit.

	20-08-2001 17:56									#9
	Remove this text

I think you will see better looking custom units/mods then in civ2 (99% of the player made stuff in civ2 looked like complete garbage, anyways) There are alot more talanted programmers and graphics designers playing these games now, and making a good mod is a very good way of geting into this buisness. Even if it isn't very popular, it's something to show your talents with. Take half-life for example, there are dozens of high quality mods.

Though, it remains to be seen whether civ3 will attract alot of modders.

	20-08-2001 18:03									#10
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quote: Originally posted by Osweld I think you will see better looking custom units/mods then in civ2 (99% of the player made stuff in civ2 looked like complete garbage, anyways) There are alot more talanted programmers and graphics designers playing these games now, and making a good mod is a very good way of geting into this buisness. Even if it isn't very popular, it's something to show your talents with. Take half-life for example, there are dozens of high quality mods. Though, it remains to be seen whether civ3 will attract alot of modders.

Hmpf. I have seen a lot of *great* artwork made for Civ2 scenarios. Some authors succeeded in creating a totally different atmosphere while maintaining graphic designs at or above the level of the standard Civ2 fare.

I see no reason to be pessimistic about Civ3 modding regarding the attraction is exerts on modders. None at all.