15-11-2000 13:00									#1
	the ten-shield musketeer trick failed me! Support Apolyton, pre-order Civilization IV

One of my favorite sleazy tricks is to get Leonardo's Workshop without getting feudalism, and keep on cranking out ten-shield warriors that upgrade to thiryt-shield musketeers when I finally do get feudalism. Pikemen, archers, and legions upgrade with gunpowder, but warriors and phalanxes don't upgrade until you get feudalism. I'm sure you've all taken advantage of this.

In my last game, I got Leo's without feudalism, and all my warriors upgraded and I wasn't allowed to build any more! Anybody ever had that happen?

	15-11-2000 13:15									#2
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Only once in a blue moon do I get a city that doesn't update automatically.Pretty rare for me.

	15-11-2000 15:07									#3
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I can't recall this ever happening for me - Feudalism is not one of my favourite techs so I frequently get Leo's without it, but - if it has been happening for me I haven't noticed (and I do micromanage so should have noticed!)
Are you playing 2.42?



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	15-11-2000 16:49									#4
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I'm another 2.42 and it doesn't happen in my games either.

I do, every now and then, get the opposite. After feudalism the cities set to produce warriors carry on doing so. If you change the production orders, warriors stops being an option but if you leave the city to its own devices the automatic upgrade doesn't kick in.

Looks like that happens to Smash sometimes too.

It came up in a game I had not so long ago and I didn't really relish taking advantage. It must be a bug and, anyway, it distorts the way you're playing rather unattractively. So I'm not sure I'd take advantage again.

	16-11-2000 10:27									#5
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My most recent game (in 2.42) saw warriors and phalanxes (and other infantry riff-raff) all go to musketeeras upon Gunpowder, although I did not yet have Feudalism. That's not usual for me as I try very hard in my games for the Great Library and then let the others find and share Feudalism for me. Subsequent captured/bribed phalanxes also updated with new techs. Finally, two others turned the "switch by sharing Feudalism. Have others shared debeest's experience?

	16-11-2000 10:48									#6
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Now I'm puzzled. I play 2.42, on PC. I'm pretty sure I've ALWAYS been able to build warriors until I learned feudalism, until this exceptional situation. I think the chart that comes with the game identifies the techs that cause units to become obsolete, and I think feudalism makes warriors and phalanxes obsolete, but I'm at work and can't check right now. Units are only supposed to upgrade (and disappear from the building list) when they're obsolete. Pikemen, archers, and legions all go obsolete with gunpowder, so they upgrade and you can't build them anymore. But if you don't have feudalism yet, you should still be able to build warriors and phalanxes.

EST, you can usually keep on building what you've been building before, even if it's obsolete or it's a Wonder that's been built, so long as you don't click on "change." (Even then, except at the lowest playing level(s?), you can just choose to build something that would cause you 50% shield loss, and it'll let you go back to what you were doing.) This is almost always an option for me, although every now and then for unknown reasons the option disappears.

Now I'm wondering if my memory is completely wrong and I could only keep on building warriors during the niche between building Leo's and learning gunpowder? Or maybe after learning gunpowder but BEFORE building Leo's? Aargh. Some things are not so easy to test, even with the cheat menu.

	15-11-2000 23:27									#7
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debeest, you are correct. I have had the same option as you. I believe that as long as you dont change prduction, AND you finish production of the warrior, the turn leos upgrades your units to muskets, you can continue producing warriors in those respective cities.
I have seen this many times but i am not 100% sure my theory on this is correct.

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	15-11-2000 23:47									#8
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This used to be the staple of my single-player strategy. There's no trick of timing needed; you can keep building warriors until you discover Feudalism. Every time you acquire a new tech, the warriors will upgrade to musketeers. Once you discover Gunpowder, warriors are not an option on the build menu, but your cities that were building warriors can keep building them.

	16-11-2000 00:27									#9
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DaveV, your description EXACTLY matches what I'm used to. Even the part about the warriors upgrading, even though they're "not obsolete yet" because you don't have feudalism. I wasn't sure about that part, so I expressed it differently in my first post. Whew! I was beginning to think early senility might be setting in.

So, ever had the warrior option disappear on you even though you didn't have feudalism yet? Any idea why that might happen?

	16-11-2000 00:57									#10
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debeest - I'm still not clear on your situation. Did your cities' production upgrade from warriors to musketeers when you didn't have Feudalism? Or were you unable to select warriors as an option to build, even though you didn't have Feudalism? The latter case is standard, because all of the pre-gunpowder infantry units are "obsoleted" by gunpowder, though not, in the case of phalanxes and warriors, in such a way as to upgrade production automatically.

	21-11-2000 01:29									#11
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In truth, at this point, I don't remember for sure. But I think I got the whole schmeer: units upgraded, units under construction upgraded, and no further option to build the obsolete units. Otherwise I wouldn't have been so surprised by it.

	21-11-2000 20:14									#12
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Pre Feudalism, my experience matches yours - I can continue building warriors. I don't know what stopped that happening in the game which led you to start the thread.

Where our experiences differ tho' is post Feudalism. What happens to me is that even tho' I've left the instructions to build warriors untouched I get a message flash onto the screen (during the build queue phase of the turn I think) telling me that the game has automatically changed the instructions from build warriors into instructions to build pikemen. That also happens with instructions to build other obsolete units.

This can be annoying. Sometimes, when I know the city is one turn off producing a unit which will, immediately it appears, contribute to maintaining martial law, I work one more square. But when the automatic overide cuts in and (if the new unit is more costly than the obsolete one), the unit I was relying upon to appear isn't built, I'm short on martial law and the mayor does a runner.

If I'm not pursuing conquests I often neglect the Chivalry line. Horsemen then remain the cheap martial law option and are useful fellows in other ways too.

As mentioned in my earlier post the automatic upgrade of build instructions just occasionally doesn't happen when it is warriors being built. I've never known the automatic upgrade not to happen with other obsolete units but I have sometimes noticed that the machine has waited until just before a unit is about to be built to flash the "Horsemen upgraded to knights in Estoniaville" message on screen.

	21-11-2000 20:34									#13
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. With MGE ,upon gunpowder discovery, all warrior production is upgraded to musketeer, and the warrior becomes unavailable.

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	22-11-2000 00:47									#14
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Actually, EST, your experience DOES match mine. Feudalism makes the choice go away and I get the message you describe. I've had the same annoying thing happen, where I'm all set to have a unit build and then I'm suddenly building a more expensive unit. I just don't know why the choice went away when I didn't have feudalism yet.

	22-11-2000 19:53									#16
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Any new tech will cause Leo to upgrade units for which you already have the tech that makes the old unit obsolete and the new unit possible. This happens when, for example, you've bribed obsolete units, or you've been able to keep building them as I've described. You learn bridgebuilding, for example, and any leftover settlers and archers upgrade to engineers and musketeers because you already have explosives and gunpowder. But units are only supposed to upgrade if you do have that specific tech.

	22-11-2000 20:11									#17
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deebest,
I thought so, thanks for the update. I've only recently started playing games again that involve Leonardo's Workshop, so I was a bit unclear on the details.

So you're basically saying that Feudalism (and Gunpowder) are the only techs that make the Warrior unit obsolete? I'd have thought that discoveries like Iron Working would also shift the building orders for Warriors - eventhough one hasn't acquired the two aforementioned.

	22-11-2000 20:34									#18
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For each unit that can go obsolete, there's one specific tech that makes it obsolete and allows construction of the successor unit. For warriors and phalanxes, it's feudalism. For pikemen, archers and legions, it's gunpowder. So, until you learn feudalism, you should be able to continue building warriors, even after you learn gunpowder. Not necessarily sensible, but clearly designed, not a bug.

	22-11-2000 20:40									#19
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Ah. Then I have no explanation for the confusing build orders update you've experienced. One suggestion would be to try and reconstruct the incident under different circumstances, that may help in narrowing down the possible causes for it. Good luck if you choose to do this...

	22-11-2000 20:48									#20
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Debeest is right about it being a design feature. Infantry units follow different tracks until Gunpowder, just as mounted units follow different tracks until Leadership. This was thought thru, however weird it might seem. By this logic, gunpowder SHOULD obsolete all priors even if phalanxes and warriors weren't upgraded by their intermediate, pikemen. Debeest seems to remember building warriors after Gunpowder but without Feudalism in cities where an order for warriors was in place prior to Gunpowder discovery. Sounds weird, but not completely illogical. A neat cheat!

	13-02-2001 01:52									#21
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New game, built Leo's, no feudalism, and it works like it always had before; I can keep building warriors wherever I was building them before, as long as I don't click the "change" button. The built warriors upgrade to musketeer whenever I get any new tech, but I can still build warriors wherever I haven't changed build orders.

I can't figure out why in my last game the build orders got upgraded without my intervention or feudalism, and I really can't figure out why so many other folks playing 2.42 seem never to have had the option to stick with what they're building in the first place.