22-08-2001 12:50									#1
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Uhm, there seems to be a typo/error in the assignment of the abilities!

http://www.civ3.com/devupdates/abilitiespopup.cfm

If you all look on the table, there are 6 abilities and 16 nations.
For all of you who are bad in math: You need exactly 15 (!!) nations to get each combination (Mil+Commercial, Mill+Expansionist, Mil + Scientific, etc....)

And Firaxis grouped 14 unique pairs and assigned it to nations...
(Chinese are really Scientific and Industious? .. well.. however..)

BUT, they made a mistake with assigning only 14 pairs...
They made two double pairs
Religious + Militaristic: Aztecs and Japanese
Expansionist + Commercial: English and Germans

I think the Germans were intended to be Militaristic and Scientific.
That makes much more sense, and establishes the 15 unique pairs plus one double.

uhm.!?

Last edited by StSz on 22-08-2001 at 12:57

	22-08-2001 13:52									#2
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Yeah, we already realised that. I don't see why the English aren't scientific either - we invented loads! (And do I even have to mention Darwin and Newton?).

	22-08-2001 18:34									#3
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Chinese = Expansionist + Scientific

They discovered a lot of knowledge, and also they had an enormous empire, only in this last century they become militaristic (remember that they discovered powder and don't use it in a real useful meaning!!!).

	22-08-2001 18:42									#4
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quote: Originally posted by XarXo Chinese = Expansionist + Scientific They discovered a lot of knowledge, and also they had an enormous empire, only in this last century they become militaristic (remember that they discovered powder and don't use it in a real useful meaning!!!).

nope!
if we would change them to expansionist and scientific they would be like the Americans, and we would have THREE doubles!!

I want to lower the number of doubles to 1...

	22-08-2001 19:36									#5
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You can mod them as much as you like - I for one am very unhappy about England being expansionist based on their attitudes in 1600-1800 rather than the rest of their history. Considering the ammount of wars they have fought over the centuries Militarist seems a better choice.

	22-08-2001 20:14									#6
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quote: Originally posted by red_jon Yeah, we already realised that. I don't see why the English aren't scientific either - we invented loads! (And do I even have to mention Darwin and Newton?).

If the English were not expansionist and commercial most Americans would be speaking Spanish as a first language. Except the citizens of New Amsterdam(New York). It was the drive of an expansionst/commercial England that started America. England became great though their colonies, aquiring them and protecting them. What is that old saying, "The sun never sets on the British Empire". You do not get a world wide empire by being scientific.


I think the civ specific attributes are those which contributed the most to bring a civ to greatness. The English were scientific after they reached great civ status. And consider that the civ specific unit for England should be so sort of improved sailing ship, that should make the English "Golden Age" inline with what would be the start of the Industrial Age. I'd say that would be rather historical.

	22-08-2001 20:50									#7
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quote: Originally posted by XarXo Chinese = Expansionist + Scientific They discovered a lot of knowledge, and also they had an enormous empire, only in this last century they become militaristic (remember that they discovered powder and don't use it in a real useful meaning!!!).

I agree for them to be Scientific, but not at all Expansionistic. That's why they built the Great Wall and that's why they called themselves the State of the Middle - because they did not want to expand.

Sure, their populace is very numerous and they have colonized nearby areas, but the Chinese politics has almost always been isolationistic and insular.

Imagine what really Expansionistic civs, like English, would do if they had so much people as Chinese.

	22-08-2001 22:00									#8
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I think the Industrious/Scientific bonus already assigned to them is perfect for the chinese.

	22-08-2001 23:53									#9
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I think the British attributes are pretty decent, possibly one could switch Commerical for Industrious but surely nothing more.

The attributes assigned for the Germans are harder to justify. Is the "commercial" attribute supposed to have something to do with the Hansa? Minor abberation in German history, largely insignificant in the larger game. And "expansionist"? The only period I can think of the germans being really expansionist (except some semi-feeble colonisation efforts) is 1935-41, which hardly was their finest hour... Though I suppose you could argue that the often forceful unification led by the Prussian emperor in the mid-19th century was pretty expansionist.

I agree with whoever said give them the unassigned Militaristic/Scientific attribute.

	23-08-2001 00:34									#10
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Germans deserve industrious/scientific, though expansionist is not a bad choice (Snapcase, Germanic tribes seeking lebensraum have been around since Germanic tribes have been).

Japanese get Militarist/Scientific in my book. They had a feudal warrior society for ages, and in addition to their current technological and scientific prowess, the period of self-imposed isolation they went through from ~1650-1869 was filled with Japanese accomplishments in a mathematics which was based on different principles than Western mathematics. They are the only country in the region which had metallurgical, industrial and chemical techniques sufficient to produce muskets of the same quality as contemporary European weaponry (though they deliberately turned their back on firearms during the period of isolation), and even in 1905 had a sufficiently modern fleet to give the Russians a black eye in the Pacific.

	23-08-2001 01:43									#11
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The science is Japan is terrific these days, but only in the past no more than 40 years. I don't remember there is any significant science achievement in Japan before. They learned everything from China, including their writing language from China. In 20th century, they did beat Russian, but all their warships were bought from Europe, so I don't think they are quanlify to be a scientic country. I think current Military/Region suits Japan pretty good. The other choice will be Militay/Expansionist.

quote: Originally posted by KrazyHorse Germans deserve industrious/scientific, though expansionist is not a bad choice (Snapcase, Germanic tribes seeking lebensraum have been around since Germanic tribes have been). Japanese get Militarist/Scientific in my book. They had a feudal warrior society for ages, and in addition to their current technological and scientific prowess, the period of self-imposed isolation they went through from ~1650-1869 was filled with Japanese accomplishments in a mathematics which was based on different principles than Western mathematics. They are the only country in the region which had metallurgical, industrial and chemical techniques sufficient to produce muskets of the same quality as contemporary European weaponry (though they deliberately turned their back on firearms during the period of isolation), and even in 1905 had a sufficiently modern fleet to give the Russians a black eye in the Pacific.

	23-08-2001 01:53									#12
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Read up on it easy...

Ignorance (in the non-pejorative sense) of the facts doesn't imply their non-existence.

	23-08-2001 03:39									#13
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I don't think the Japanese should have had religious as a benefit... But the Aztec had the correct listings, they were a warrior priesthood- that is why the Spanish conquered them, the Aztec thought Cortez was a god.

Germans shouldn't be Expansionist or Commercial... Spain was more Expansionist and The Netherlands/Portugal were more Commercial.

Germany should be Militaristic/Scientific (or) Cultural (If they have a cultural aspect avaliable in the game)

They have had at least as many wars as England/France, but most, 30yrs war, etc. were held on their own lands and they were held to unite themselves.

(Also, Germanic tribes vs. Romans, etc.)

That is why Military/Scientific is needed.

	23-08-2001 05:36									#14
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quote: Originally posted by KrazyHorse Read up on it easy... Ignorance (in the non-pejorative sense) of the facts doesn't imply their non-existence.

I don't buy it, KH. The Japanese were good at working metal, and I do remember that they were amongst the first countries to invent futures contracts (over rice, of course), but their technology base has historically been imported not created, either from China, or Britain and the USA.

The fact that they, as you say, gave up their supposed technological lead in musketry just demonstrates that they did not value science or technology until the Americans (i.e. Commodore Perry and his black ships) forced them to late in the 19th Century.

I go with the militaristic/religious combination for the Japanese.

	23-08-2001 06:43									#15
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quote: If the English were not expansionist and commercial most Americans would be speaking Spanish as a first language. Except the citizens of New Amsterdam(New York). It was the drive of an expansionst/commercial England that started America. England became great though their colonies, aquiring them and protecting them. What is that old saying, "The sun never sets on the British Empire". You do not get a world wide empire by being scientific. I think the civ specific attributes are those which contributed the most to bring a civ to greatness. The English were scientific after they reached great civ status. And consider that the civ specific unit for England should be so sort of improved sailing ship, that should make the English "Golden Age" inline with what would be the start of the Industrial Age. I'd say that would be rather historical.

Swissy, you hit the nail right on the head!!!!

Sure England had many scientific/mathematic achievements but their real claim to fame as a civ has to be their great empire.

	23-08-2001 20:15									#16
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quote: Originally posted by Haupt. Dietrich Swissy, you hit the nail right on the head!!!! Sure England had many scientific/mathematic achievements but their real claim to fame as a civ has to be their great empire.

The pinnacle of the British Empire was certainly Expansionist and Commercial. They also lead the forefront of the Industrial Revolution and invented many things at that point in time.

However this comes against a backdrop of over a thousand years of warfare, during which time they fought national wars, religious wars and even civil wars and ended up with less territory than they started with. It is this internal turmoil that provided such rich incentives for the colonial programme. Until the industrial revolution France and the low countries were significantly more important in trade and wealth than England ever had been.

On a historical map an Expansionist England will be useless. By the time they can get their free scout onto a trireme the Germans and French will have snaffled all the goody huts and have a pikeman ready to kill the insolent scout who comes nosing around. Far better to be Militarist and prepared to repel those Romans when they come nosing over the channel, or take the fight to them first!

	26-08-2001 14:00									#17
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Sorry guys, but both English and Germans were as expansionist as you can possibly get throughout all of their histories.

As for England, its foundation was laid by the Anglo-Saxons expanding into previoulsy Celitc Britain, then the Normans took over and went on to subjugate Ireland, (unsuccessfully) tried to do the same to Scotland and went onto another spree in France, at their height ruling over half of modern France! And would very much have liked to take the rest, too. John I was called "Lackland" because he lost everything north of the Loire. The Hundred Years' War was about English claims to the French throne, a claim not officially given up till 1802!!! And I just LOVE to play the English on map of Earth, it's the ultimate challenge, especially if you pack Europe and America with other civs.

As for the Germans, after the Germanic tribes had gone out to enjoy the Mediterranean climate pretty much everything east of the Elbe River was Slav, but if you look at a map of Europe in 1914 you see a German nation-state extending far to the east of that and German minorities all over Eastern Europe, far south into the Balkans and as far east as the Volga. Not to mention Wilhelm II's desire for a "place in the sun", i.e. colonies.

	26-08-2001 14:01									#18
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Sorry guys, but both English and Germans were as expansionist as you can possibly get throughout all of their histories.

As for England, its foundation was laid by the Anglo-Saxons expanding into previoulsy Celitc Britain, then the Normans took over and went on to subjugate Ireland, (unsuccessfully) tried to do the same to Scotland and went onto another spree in France, at their height ruling over half of modern France! And would very much have liked to take the rest, too. John I was called "Lackland" because he lost everything north of the Loire. The Hundred Years' War was about English claims to the French throne, a claim not officially given up till 1802!!! And I just LOVE to play the English on map of Earth, it's the ultimate challenge, especially if you pack Europe and America with other civs.

As for the Germans, after the Germanic tribes had gone out to enjoy the Mediterranean climate pretty much everything east of the Elbe River was Slav, but if you look at a map of Europe in 1914 you see a German nation-state extending far to the east of that and German minorities all over Eastern Europe, far south into the Balkans and as far east as the Volga (not to mention Wilhelm II's desire for a "place in the sun", i.e. colonies). WWII reverted a millenium-long process of EXPANSION.

	26-08-2001 14:46									#19
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quote: The pinnacle of the British Empire was certainly Expansionist and Commercial. They also lead the forefront of the Industrial Revolution and invented many things at that point in time. However this comes against a backdrop of over a thousand years of warfare, during which time they fought national wars, religious wars and even civil wars and ended up with less territory than they started with. It is this internal turmoil that provided such rich incentives for the colonial programme. Until the industrial revolution France and the low countries were significantly more important in trade and wealth than England ever had been. On a historical map an Expansionist England will be useless. By the time they can get their free scout onto a trireme the Germans and French will have snaffled all the goody huts and have a pikeman ready to kill the insolent scout who comes nosing around. Far better to be Militarist and prepared to repel those Romans when they come nosing over the channel, or take the fight to them first!

Right, Grumbold & co. English should be Militaristic, Expansionistic, Industrous, Scientific, Commercial and Religious.