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M. le Comte
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Last Aristocrat in Paris
Aug 2001
time: 06:14
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Those who have played to CTP know that to much units and to much tech can kill the gameplay, making it unbalanced and a bit unrealistic.
But the fear to look like to CTP seems to have produced evil effects.
Frightened by the fact that CTP was "too much", Meier and his staff have brought nothing new to the tech tree (only printing machine, which we were waiting fo a long time, and two or three other tech I do not remember).
They haven't created brand new units, the specific units being just better versions of already existing units.
They haven't improved the number of civs, which was, with 21 in Civ 2, still ridiculous.
They have just added "Nationalism" or something like that to the list of the governments.
Yes, sure, they have improved the gameplay, they have added a cultural dimension, the borders, the GA, they have improved battlesystem.
But several gaps that had been noticed by the players through 10 years of not-sleeping nights haven't been filled yet.
What about the invention of Paper, of reinforced concrete, of television ????
What about Medieval feet-soldiers, combat plungers, difference between diesel submarines and nuclear ones, spy satellites and scoot planes (I don't know how you say that in English) ?
What about Hittites, Assyrians, Numids, Portugeses, Senegal empires, Hebrews, Arabs, Incas, Mayas, or Inuits ? Perhaps some of the civs I'm talking about are include, but the other ?
What about Parlementar Monarchies, conservative dictatures, half-direct-democraty, Totalitarian systems etc..
CTP is not fun because of too much tech, too much units, and too much govts, that are often totaly unrealistic. But putting about 90 techs to describe Humanity history, it's a bit weak, isn't it ?
I'm sure that civ 3 will be a fun game, according to what I've watched on tis site and on civ3.com. But why not filling the gaps of this wonderful entertainment at the occasion of release of the third sequel ????
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K.J.H.
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Groningen, the Netherlands
Jun 2001
time: 06:14
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There are two things of CTP i shall miss in Civ 3
1. Off course they had too much governments, but I liked Theocracy. The 'Cleric'-guy is somebody I certainly miss. However, Theocracy was too powerfull in CTP. All of the great and invincible nations were theocracies in my games. Science should suck like a vacuum cleaner in theocracies.
2. The Corporate Branch (the man with the desk that moved) was also a cool CTP unit. The power of America and Europe nowadays are great, because of the multinationals like Ford, McDonalds, Philips, Mercedes etc.
By the way, I hope the patrizans of Civ II come back! I liked it when I had support from guerilla forces after losing a city. Maybe in Civ 3, they could use culture points and the city hapinness for this. Happy cities with high culture should unleash masses of patrizans, low-culture cities with too much unhappy citizens should unleash a few.
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Adagio
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quote:
Originally posted by Osweld
You're right, it just made it painfully stupid. In my opinion anyways, I thought alot of the new units, techs and, concepts in CTP where incredibly stupid/cheesy, especially when you get into the 'futuristic' crap they had. |
They didn't even have half "futuristic" crap as they had of "the rest of the history" crap. The slaver sucked big time (in SP anyway), the same did all the other "slaver alike" people, like the televangilist (sp?) or that boring prist. They took out great wonders (and threw it to the trashcan) and changed great wonders into bad wonders, while they also added bad wonders.
But the future part was great, nice cities and good units, there's only these things I don't want to see again: The Space cities, the underwater cities, the "walking city" unit or what was that and such things...But I really liked the War Walker 
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Funny, I rather liked the futuristic stuff in CTP. First thing I added to Civ2 after I found out you could mod it (found out by sheer accident) were three futuristic units and three futuristic techs (which was the limit I believe) Besides, if you didn't like the future stuff - you could simply mod it out. Then again, KJH, civ is not sci-fi, but CTP is in part a game about sci fi. You would agree, I take it, that CTP and civ are different games (although CTP is heavily derivative). The historical scope is different, the interface is different, many of the concepts are different, and so on.
Oh yeah, like every Civ2 wonder was gold. Penicillan was a far better wonder than Bach's Cathedral (and what cathedral is that? Where is it located?). Penicillan ushered in a medical revolution - that's pretty wonderful. At least CTP always had wonders - i.e. marvels of human invention, architecture, and though - as opposed to famous individuals (Newton, Smith, Bach) as wonders. Newton never had his own college, Smith was an academic who never owned a trading company, and so on. Give me a break!
Its one thing to be hostile towards CTP series for its own shortcomings. Activision released what amounted to a buggy development platform - so much so that anyone who is not interested in modding or using the mods of others should not acquire the platform. Activision abandoned their so-called game shortly after release, and so on. Too many peopel, it seems to me are disparaging CTP because it diverged from Civ or did not have Sid's imprimatur on it. CTP is its own game The first reasons are good reasons to criticize CTP, the second reasons are not.
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monkspider
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banned
Aug 2001
time: 23:14
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I am a CTP fiend as well Mr Pleasent, not to the degree that I am a Civ fiend, but I nonetheless agree with the majority of your points. One statement I would disagree with is the assertment that CTP has better Wonders than Civ 2. I have always found them to be interesting, and even artsy (Contraception, Ramayana, Egalitarian Act), some make interesting points about society (Zero Crime Bill, World Peace Center, Hollywood) and some are just frickin' cool (Dino Park! The coolest wonder EVER) but they rarely had the sense of "wonder" that I would get from building The Great Library, The Colossus, or SETI. Plus, some of the CTP wonders are simply lame concepts (The Agency?? Empire State Building?) and have gone from being too powerful in general in the first CTP to a little too weak for my liking in CTP 2.
I love CTP, but the wonders are one area in which it unquestionably comes up short.
If i could suggest but one thing to the makers of CTP 3, More Dino Park, less Empire State Building.
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Monkeyspider:
I don't think the wonders of CTP were so much better than Civ, just that Civ had some clunkers in it too. Emancipation Act, Appian Way, and Field Dynamics all pretty much blew. But the Empire State Building really is a very cool building - the archetypal modernist building. An influence to all skyscrapers that came later but with more flair. I think we're on the same page except with respect to a certain building.
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I don't know pheonixcager, Bill Gates may be looking to monopolize the turn-based strategy market. And Microsoft might figure, "What the hell! We'll put out a flawed civ3 and let WesW/Dale/Locutus fix it for free!" CTP3 will come free on all new PCs, displacing Civ (or screwing it up if anyone tries to install it) but patches will cost $10 each and come out every month. Firaxis will sell out to AOL/Time Warner.
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quote:
That's the advantage of the Civ series, there's no PW system |
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Read the rest of that post - that's exactly the point I'm making. Civ and CTP should diverge a little bit. No point in having exactly the same game twice.
I don't know about making all of the wonders buildings though. Sure, the seven wonders of the ancient world were all buildings (and I would point out that neither civ1 nor civ2 used the actual list), but I take it the wonderousness of the Great Library was not the architecture, but rather the scholarship it facilitated. Besides I've often heard the internet called the 8th wonder of the world - but it isn't located in a building. Besides, other than the Empire State Building, maybe the VAB, and possibly that giant antenna in Toronto, what buildings would qualify as wonders today?
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quote:
CTP+mod will be much more interesting if you just want to conquer the world |
I don't know about that. The logistics of securing resources and dealing with culture could make for an interesting conquest-type challenge.
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quote:
Hmmm you are right. But like the Emancipation Act of CTP ... why do you need the shields for? |
I thought the exact same thing the first time I played CTP1!
Of course, now that I think about it, the VAB would make a pretty cool minor wonder each civ can build. Then again, that antenna in Toronto is much cooler than the Eiffel Tower . . . Hmmm, do I see an idea for a mod here . . .
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XarXo
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of the "I agree"
Jul 2000
time: 05:14
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When I played CTP2 I start at the middle level, I played the Incans at the World Map ??scenario??, well, I fund Qosqo (not "Cuzco" or "Cusco" as the game, the historical accurancy is IMPORTANT!!), and appeared an... Arabian city???  Well, I continued making cities... Etc... I win the game only making "End Turn", I don't know what I made... I Played? CTP was an horrible game, I don't feel any kind of relationship with it... Is too confusing... That strange units, that strange sounds... AGH. I HATE it!
Sincerely, I believe that the CTP creators never played its own game. 
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22-08-2001 13:03
), etc, etc, etc...I could go on like this forever, but the tech tree did not make the game boring
. 
That's why I think the Emancipation Act should be some 'law' or 'ordinance' of SimCity 3000 or the 'edicts' of Tropico.
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