23-08-2001 23:04									#1
	Analysis of Civ3 Civilizations Support Apolyton, pre-order Civilization IV

Civ3 have cut down a drastic number of civs from civ2 and many of us agree and disagree with some of these game designers choices. Let's take a look at which current civ3 civilizations are worthy to remain in the game and which should not:


The Americans
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History: Very short compared to other civs
Achievement: 20th century superpower, produced Sid Meier, the creator of Civ3!
Worthiness to be in the game: Yes
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The Aztecs
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History: the cradle of central american civilization
Achievement: Some architechtural achievements...
Worthiness: Yes
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The Chinese
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History: the cradle of Asian civilization and world superpower for thousands of years.
Achievement: Great wall, paper, compass, gun powder, umberalla, etc.
Worthiness: Yes
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The English
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History: Medium length civilization, world superpower in the late 20th and early 21th century
Achievement: Colonized many parts of the world and popularized their language.
Worthiness: Yes
---------------------------------

The French
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History: Medium length civilization
Achievement: Colonized parts of the world, the eiffel tower?
Worthiness: probably
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The Germans
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History: Medium length civilization
Achievement: Arguable world's strongest nation during the world wars and still is a powerful country, Albert Einstein's birthplace.
Worthiness: Yes
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The Greeks
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History: Very ancient
Achievement: the cradle of entire western civilization as well as the home to many of the greatest thinkers.
Worthiness: Yes
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The Indians
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History: Very ancient
Achievement: Buddism, home of several popular religions
Worthiness: Yes
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The Iroquois
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History: Very ancient
Achievement: not much
Worthiness: toss a coin
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The Japanese
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History: Medium length
Achievement: ? Oh yes, home of the video games
Worthiness: Roll a die
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The persians
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History: Ancient
Achievement: the cradle of arab civilization
Worthiness: Yes
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The Romans
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History: Ancient
Achievement: Colosseum, gladiators, and caesar!
Worthiness: Yes
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The Romans
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History: very short, comparable to Americans
Achievement: A world superpower for many decades in 21th century and home of ballerinas.
Worthiness: Yes
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The Romans
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History: Ancient
Achievement: A world superpower for many decades in 21th century and home of ballerinas.
Worthiness: Yes
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The Zulus
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History: Ancient
Achievement: Not much.
Worthiness: Roll a die
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As you can see, I personally believe the Japanese and the zulus should not be included in civ3 because there are room for more recognized cultures. What do you think?

	23-08-2001 23:23									#2
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I don't know what you're measuring any of these things by, but you're crazy.

French only probably? They were (and are) the major Western continental power from about 1100 a.d. on, with an exception starting in 1871 and continuing to 1945.

The Russians (I'm assuming that the ballerinas comment is directed towards them) have been around for twice as long as the Americans as an independent civ, and even longer as a people.

The Japanese and Zulus are less "worthy" than the Iroquois?
That's pretty amazing, given that there were not really any Iroquois cities, whereas the Japanese had cities, a complex economy etc., and the Zulus had cities and a unified nation.

The Aztecs didn't originate Central American civ; they inherited it from the Olmecs, and their primary achievement over other Central American civs was military, not architectural.

	24-08-2001 01:44									#3
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YefeiPi, something is wrong with your post: too many Romans!

Personally I would replace the Zulus with the Ethiopians and maybe the Aztecs with the Hopi, but otherwise I agree with Firaxis' choices.

	24-08-2001 02:47									#4
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I think I'd replace the Iriquois with the Incas, and Zulus with the Mali Empire.

Also, I'd think it is a tossup between Babylon and the Arabs(Muslims) over who should be in the game. Babylon have how old they were, while the Muslim Arabs have how much they conquered and ruled.

	24-08-2001 18:03									#5
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quote: Originally posted by Imran Siddiqui I think I'd replace the Iriquois with the Incas, and Zulus with the Mali Empire. Also, I'd think it is a tossup between Babylon and the Arabs(Muslims) over who should be in the game. Babylon have how old they were, while the Muslim Arabs have how much they conquered and ruled.

Muslim Arabs is not a civilization in the sense used in the game's context. Nor did the "Arabs" achieve very much. The Turco-Mongols and the Ottomans did, on the other hand.

	24-08-2001 19:22									#6
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The Persians weren't really the "cradle of Arab civilization." They are an Indo-Aryan people and their language is related to the Indo-European languages (English, Latin, Russian, Hindi, etc.) and not in any way to Arabic. While they may believe in Islam, it is not because of any ethnic relation to the peoples of Arabia.

	24-08-2001 20:24									#7
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quote: Originally posted by KrazyHorse I don't know what you're measuring any of these things by, but you're crazy. French only probably? They were (and are) the major Western continental power from about 1100 a.d. on, with an exception starting in 1871 and continuing to 1945. The Russians (I'm assuming that the ballerinas comment is directed towards them) have been around for twice as long as the Americans as an independent civ, and even longer as a people.l.

Whats an "independent civ" ? Surely you mean an independent state.

LOTM

	24-08-2001 20:26									#8
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quote: Originally posted by Grim Legacy Muslim Arabs is not a civilization in the sense used in the game's context. Nor did the "Arabs" achieve very much. The Turco-Mongols and the Ottomans did, on the other hand.

If you mean a state, no, but they did have the ommayad and later abbasid caliphates, which were states.

Their cultural and scientific acheivements were considerable.


LOTM

	24-08-2001 20:31									#9
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Surely I do. Sorry, but some people kept telling me they were the same thing long enough for me to begin to believe it subconsciously.

	24-08-2001 23:57									#10
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LOTM is correct.

The Arabs from 700-1400s AD were one of the most powerful civilizations in existance. People clamor about the Spanish not being included, but the Arabs had a much greater impact on history. The invention of algebra, for example. Along with an empire that reached from Spain to India.

	25-08-2001 01:53									#11
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I agree with Firaxis' decisions on this matter, I would love to see the Mongols worked in somehow, but I don't know how, perhaps at the cost of The Persians? (Babylonians and Persians in the same game with such a low number of civs seems a bit redundant) But for the most part I think Firaxis' civ decisions were absolutely perfect.

	25-08-2001 20:01									#12
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quote: Originally posted by KrazyHorse Surely I do. Sorry, but some people kept telling me they were the same thing long enough for me to begin to believe it subconsciously.

I hope you dont mean i said that civs and states are the same thing

Civ2 (and apparently civ3) protagonists are definitely states, though they are called civs, and they seem chosen to some degree to represent civilizations rather than specific states (thus *Greeks*, not Athens, or Macedonia, or Seleucid empire, or Byzantium, or Modern Greek state) This ambiguity didnt matter much when we playing with generic civs - since all the civ meant was a name, leader names and city names (and a diplo/growth style, but only for AI controlled civs) Now that we have unique civs contradictions begin to emerge. It no longer works to paper over the differences between a civ and a state - I am only to trying to regularly point out the contradictions, as they become apprarent in these threads.

LOTM

	25-08-2001 20:42									#13
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quote: The Arabs from 700-1400s AD were one of the most powerful civilizations in existance. People clamor about the Spanish not being included, but the Arabs had a much greater impact on history. The invention of algebra, for example. Along with an empire that reached from Spain to India

I'd say that the Arabs are part of the Persian civ. I think the Persians are the proto-Arabs, like the Olmecs are the proto-Aztecs.

	25-08-2001 20:55									#14
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YefeiPi: The French should definetly be in. No question about it. From the days of Carolus the Great to De Gaulle they played a very important part in the history of the world.

Anyway, when I get the game I'm changing some civs right away.

Keep

English
French
Germans
Russians
Americans
Aztecs
Egyptians
Romans
Greeks
Persians
Chinese
Japanese
Indians

Replace

Incan (instead of Iroquis)
Ethiopians (instead of Zulus, but we do need an African civ to combat the Egyptians on a World Map)
Mongols (instead of Babylonians, makeing the Persians and Babylonians one civ)

Adding, if possible

Spanish
Vikings
Carthagians
Ottomans

Possibly adding

Arabs
Babylonians (keeping the babs and adding the Mongols)
Goths
Mayans



It's kinda hard finding the right civs. Almost all the worlds great civs are in Meso-America, Middle East, Meditereanian or Europe. Relatively very few can be found in Asia, South+North America and Africa

	25-08-2001 23:02									#15
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quote: Originally posted by Mark L I'd say that the Arabs are part of the Persian civ. I think the Persians are the proto-Arabs, like the Olmecs are the proto-Aztecs.

Wrong. Persians had their roots in south russian steppes, while Arabs were natives of the Arabic Pensinsular. Even their languages came from 2 independent families: Indo-European for Persians and Semitic for Arabs. It was true that during various times of history these 2 civilization ruled over the same territory, but their cultures were very very different and should not be labeled together. The Arabic culture is that of Islam, and it has replaced the ancient Persian and Egyptian cultures.

	26-08-2001 10:23									#16
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I agree the Arabs are one of the most important civs to be added. They founded Islam, which is an aspect of culture that links 1.3 bn (22%) of the world's population. The Arabic language is spoken by 235 mil people, the sixth largest language. Not to mention their cultural achievements at the height of their civilization. Probably it is better to merge the Babylonians with the Persians rather than the Persians with the Arabs. If the Babylonians are supposed to incorporated surrounding cultures (eg Assyrians) it can also incorporate the Persians. This is also convenient as the height of the Persians (Persian Empire) is closer to the Babylonians than to the Arabs in terms of time.

I also agree that the French needs to be included. One of the most important cultural achievements by the French is the French revolution. Ideas of democracy and liberty from the revolution are spread by Napoleon to other parts of Europe. Many words in English originates from French. French culture is also obviously different from English and Spanish. I think there is more reason to include the French than the Germans.

My list of the 16 would be:
Chinese
Indian
Egyptian
Mesopotamian (includes all ancient cultures from the area eg Persians)
Greeks
Romans
French
Spanish (includes majority culture in Latin America and minority culture in South-West US today)
Anglo-Saxons (includes Anglo-Saxon populations in US, UK, Canada, Australia, etc today)
Russians
Arabs
Japanese
Aztecs
Incans
Malis or Zulus
Germans or Mongols or a civilization in SE Asia (Malays? Javanese?)

I would definitely exclude the Iroquois. The Mongols i think might be better represented by very strong barbarians in the game.

	26-08-2001 11:20									#17
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Why the Incas? What's so special about them, compared to the socially sophisticated Iroquois? (Who lived entirely elsewehere, too.)

	26-08-2001 12:19									#18
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quote: Originally posted by Ribannah Why the Incas? What's so special about them, compared to the socially sophisticated Iroquois? (Who lived entirely elsewehere, too.)

How about that massive empire they built all along the eastern coast of South America, creating what Toynbee called a "universal state" including all the strands of their respective civilization, just as the Romans did for the Graeco-Roman civilization. Not to mention a sophisticated culture. But I think there should be at least one representative each for the native North, South and Mesoamerica civilizations.

And I can't believe the Arabs still didn't make it in, their cultural, scientific and religious achievements were just massive. Anyone read "The Name of the Rose" where it says that that (fictitious!) monastic library there is the only one in Christendom to rival all these giant libraries the Arabs had compiled? And they had a massive influence on Western civilization as well, but the attitude of that Renaissance guy (whose name I unfortunately forgot) who translated all the Arab medical authorities into Latin and pretended he had written everything himself is obviously still pretty prevalent. Same goes for the Iroquois contribution to the US constitution

	26-08-2001 13:21									#19
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I really can't see any reason why the Iroquois should be included. In another thread people were arguing whether the US federal system originated from the Iroquois constitution. Is the reason for including the Iroquois just bcos they might have contributed to the federal system of the US? And is that a really important question to ask when considering whether these people are a great civilzation?

I don't think geography should be a reason for inclusion either. When playing in the standard world map would you really get 3 civs all in the Western Hemisphere? It wouldn't make a very interesting game in the Eastern Hemisphere.

	26-08-2001 14:30									#20
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But putting everyone into the Eastern hemisphere makes for an interesting game in the Western one? A bit Euro- (or Sino-)centric perhaps? Although it can actually be quite a challenge if you give a "capable" civ lots of space, e.g. if you left the Americans all on their own on a map of Earth in CivII they just became ridiculously MASSIVE and scientifically advanced. Though I prefer to play the Aztecs, crush those damnyankees and then conquer Europe!

Won't rehash the Iroquois arguments here, plenty in the mentioned thread.

	26-08-2001 15:18									#21
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It's amazing how much people disagree with everything. Thinking of civilization's achievements, geographic place, and especially different cultures, these choices Firaxis has made ARE PERFECT!!!
Unhappy that your country isn't in? Then use the editor! All these western countries are the same anyway, just chance the name!

	26-08-2001 15:31									#22
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quote: The English --------------------------------- History: Medium length civilization, world superpower in the late 20th and early 21th century

When did that happen?

English supremacy was the 19th and early 20th century.

Anglo-Saxons (includes Anglo-Saxon populations in US, UK, Canada, Australia, etc today)

As long as they keep the name "English" as the civilization name its fine with me.

	26-08-2001 16:21									#23
	Re: Analysis of Civ3 Civilizations Full PM-box? Change here!

Personally, I would kick out any civilization or nation that didn't exist at least 500 years ago.

Aztecs
Chinese
Americans - gone
English
French
Germans
Greeks
Indians
Iroquois - prefer to replace them with Incas, Maya, etc.
Japanese
Persians
Romans
Russians - iffy
Zulus

I would add:

Babylonians
Mongols
Spanish
Vikings
Carthaginians

	26-08-2001 16:37									#24
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In terms of size, it's much better to have 5 civs in Eastern Hemisphere and 2 in West. 4 and 3 just makes Eastern civilizations too strong and is unhistoric. As for Eurocentric or Sinocentirc, I think the history of the world is pretty much Eurocentric and Sinocentric and Eastern Hemisphere centric. So I usually have 5 and 2 when I want to play a more history game. Sometimes I even play 6 to 1 if I start in Europe so I can ship settlers to America and settle there and bully the Aztecs.

Uh.... I think everyone has different opinions. That's what makes the world interesting. How about providing some real reasons why u think the choice is perfect?

	26-08-2001 17:08									#25
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Just that in CivIII you apparently get to play up to 15 competitors, so you can have your cake and eat it, too! Which is another argument for geographic balance, what if you give e.g. the Aztecs all of South America to play with and make them intelligent enough to use it, or the Zulus and Africa (at least in my Civs I and II the Egyptians have never been able to hold their own against them except by sheer luck), while everywhere else everyone is treading on each other's toes... And I think if we have one common denominator here it is that very few people think that the choice of civs is perfect, but then that wasn't really to be expected, eh?

And what's so special about 500 years ago - maybe just that its convenient to kick the US out?!?

	27-08-2001 16:30									#26
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Executor...Have you noticed that Babylonians are alredy in?
And what comes to Mongols, they were just barbarians who rode over Asia and bacame just shepherds again after that.

	28-08-2001 06:57									#27
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quote: Originally posted by KrazyHorse French only probably? They were (and are) the major Western continental power from about 1100 a.d. on, with an exception starting in 1871 and continuing to 1945.

One forgets the Spanish... major power from 1400-to at least 1800???

And the Holy Roman Empire (Italian/German) (France was powerful... but not as much as you say.)????

Kingdom of Lithuania 1400's VERY LARGE

And the Vikings- they colonized France, England (Before 1100), Russia, Turkey, etc.

quote: The Russians (I'm assuming that the ballerinas comment is directed towards them) have been around for twice as long as the Americans as an independent civ, and even longer as a people.

*Cough* RUS- is UKRANIAN, not Russian. It lasted until about 1000 when Vikings came. Then in 1200 the Mongols took over. The RUSSIAN civilization is Mongol-Finnish-Rus.

The Russians truly Start as a civ in 1600's...They Start in 1400's very small... (As independent civ, yes twice as long )

	28-08-2001 07:00									#28
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Arabs also kept the Roman Writings alive in their universities and Europeans studied under the Muslims

	28-08-2001 07:02									#29
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Iroquis were as socially sophisticated as the Mongols mixed with the Aztec

Incas had a large road system, mining, sophisticated religion and probably could have held off the spanish conquest for many years if not for the fact that they had just had a Civil War and caught many diseases from the Spanish.

	28-08-2001 15:28									#30
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quote: Originally posted by DarkCloud Iroquis were as socially sophisticated as the Mongols mixed with the Aztec

* Points at Iroquois constitution *

quote: Incas had a large road system, mining, sophisticated religion and probably could have held off the spanish conquest for many years if not for the fact that they had just had a Civil War and caught many diseases from the Spanish.

The Iroquois had trade, democracy, freedom of religion, and quickly learned gunpowder by which they were able to stay on par with the imperial powers.

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