24-08-2001 05:56									#1
	Regular, veteran and elite units: that's it? Support Apolyton, buy Galactic Civilizations

Only three levels? Is that a mistake?

Are there other ways in which Civ III will be inferior to SMAC?

	24-08-2001 05:58									#2
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yes. the "flat" landscapes is a step down IMHO, but maybe thats to "un-civ" for Sid.

	24-08-2001 09:02									#3
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No Social Engineering.

No Unit Workshop.

*sniff*

	24-08-2001 09:21									#4
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Actually, I for one am happy with all of those developments.

All the different levels of "veterenness" was ok for SMAC. . but it wouldn't be good for Civ3 i don't think. .
3-d map - i'm neutral about. i don't think it's a step down or a step up, just different. i can't think of any depth it would necessarily add to civ3 that they aren't already getting (being able to see farther from mountains, etc) . .
and i really didn't care for social engineering and i HATED the unit workshop.

	24-08-2001 09:41									#5
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I <em>knew</em> you're going to say that, connor. You party popper

SE is good because you get to find tune your ruling policies. <em>Everybody</em> knows communism is an economic system and not a type of government, right?

The Unit Workshop is good because I can create units that are best suited to my own unique situations. For example, if I have a lot of horses available, I can build exclusively mounted units.

	24-08-2001 09:44									#6
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lol UR: . .
i'm move of a fan of set governement types. . along with "ordinances" that you can enact, ala simcity . .
though that probably won't be in, SE is at the bottom of the list. .

	24-08-2001 10:08									#7
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i'll miss lots of things from smac, but most of them would be hard to implement into civ 3.

I really liked social engineering instead of having anarchy for a turn and having, like four viable government options. you could fine tune your society and make, like 10000 a turn.

I'll miss the orbital probes, those *****es were useful. and you could destroy other probes and defend against missiles at the same time with orbital defense pods.

I hope they give us an option to get rid of flat terrain. Its a step back to make it flat, as far as i'm concerned.

The design workshop was sweet, but it couldn't be put in with civ 3. you could make some pretty sweet units, including a probe boat.

The terraformers and colony pods distinction ws important, but i think civ 3 fixes this somewhat

in smac, secret projects made more of a difference than in civ. they could make or break a faction. I'll miss each of the 34 projects (yes, 34! i want more wonders in civ.)

don't get me wrong, i'm sure civ 3 will set the TBS benchmark. but i will continue to play alpha centauri until it is released, and afterwards.

	24-08-2001 10:12									#8
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you ****lickers censor the word *****? That's ****ing *****ed up. i hope you guys ***** ponies and recreational vehicles.

	24-08-2001 10:48									#9
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quote: Originally posted by Urban Ranger No Social Engineering. No Unit Workshop. *sniff*

I hated both of those "features".

	24-08-2001 10:48									#10
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Well one area where Civ3 is necessarily inferior is the basic story with different factions , their philosophical agendas etc. which was pretty compelling. While there will be the option for differentiated civs the basic concept of Civ (ie building your civ from scratch) prevents the designers from taking that too far.

Another area where SMAC will remain superior was the whole interaction between terraforming, the environment and alien life-forms. Things like that can happen on a big scale only towards the end of Civ3 and then not nearly as much.

Again by its very nature you can't get cool technologies like air-flight right till the end of Civ.

So no matter how good Civ3 is ,SMAC will still probably live on ...

BTW I liked SE quite a bit as well.One of the most interesting things about it was the interaction between your SE choices and your diplomatic position with other factions.

I never quite got to like the unit workshop but that's probably because I still haven't played that much SMAC.

	24-08-2001 15:56									#11
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I don't think there are large drawbacks associated with 'flat' terrain. Civ is not a tactical RTS kind of game where individual rocks serve to cover your infantrymen. It's about large areas of a given type, each of which still carries defense/movement specs.

Also, the veteran levels seem fine to me. Even the best RTS so far (Emperor: Battle for Dune) uses only three levels for the units. No need to meddle with a superfluous number of levels, which would be more in place for a wargame.

	24-08-2001 17:59									#12
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MODERATORS- could you make the thread title "SMAC/Civ III comparision"? Please?

quote: Originally posted by isaac brock The design workshop . . . couldn't be put in with civ 3. you could make some pretty sweet units, including a probe boat.

But those exist in real life. The Soviet "fishing trawlers" off the coast of the US, for example.

Social Engineering also happens in the real world. Look at China: they went from Planned to Free Market (well, almost). Russia changed from Police State/Planned to, well, what ever the heck it is now.

I don't care much about the map; IMO graphics are only of material significance in a shoot 'em up game. Civ III could be based on stick figures if the AI is decent.

connor, as a soldier don't you think that unit moral/ablity/training falls into more than 3 categories? In reality I would think it is on a continum, and thus the more you differentiate the more you reflect reality.

	24-08-2001 18:08									#13
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title edited


thread moved to the Community forum. i'm repeating that such comparison threads are to be posted here....

	24-08-2001 18:42									#14
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quote: Originally posted by MarkG thread moved to the Community forum.... such comparison threads are to be posted here....

Well, that kind of sucks.

	25-08-2001 00:07									#16
	Re: Why does it suck? Remove this text

1. it doesn't make sense: the topic generally dealt with Civ III, which suggests a forum area; I have no idea what this "Community" area is supposed to be

2. the thread had an interesting discussion going before it moved here (I predict at most one more comment on the thread subject)

But it's Mark's site, he can do whatever random thing he likes.

	25-08-2001 01:33									#17
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the Community part of this forum are meant for things that are common for the entire or a part of the civ community. comparing two civ games is one of these things....

	25-08-2001 02:10									#18
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Well this sucks. They aren't including most of what I liked about SMAC

	25-08-2001 02:23									#19
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quote: Originally posted by n.c. Russia changed from Police State/Planned to, well, what ever the heck it is now.

mafia state

quote: I don't care much about the map; IMO graphics are only of material significance in a shoot 'em up game. Civ III could be based on stick figures if the AI is decent.

true, but an 16bit earth-colores elevated rotatable map would be great

	25-08-2001 04:46									#20
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Mark,

Please reconsider your decision.

This kind of thread fits much better with the Civ3 forum than this one.

	25-08-2001 15:17									#21
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Well the two will be different games, but I consider SMAC to be a considerable move up from Civ2, and was a lot more adventurous in the methods it used. I would have liked to see in civ3 a graduated experience system and some form of social engineering, modified of course to make it more suitable to the context of the game. It would be a shame to lose some of the better features of SMAC...

	25-08-2001 18:59									#22
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Thanks, GP.

quote: Originally posted by MarkG comparing two civ games is one of these things....

I at least now know the rationale (wrong as it may be).

Garth and PH- My sentiments exactly. The major adopted improvements are the build queueues (?) and colonies, which are good, but that's not enough.

MarkG- Mafia state is correct. I must be the only guy that doesn't care about a map!