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La Fayette
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albi, france
Oct 2000
time: 06:12
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This topic is as old as civ (but I am much older than civ, so why not?).
I would like to refer to Dave's topic (posted November 18, 1999 12:01) named "Analysis of resource square usage" and to my own topic named "the 3 arrows strategy".
Here are Dave's assumptions regarding resource squares:
"Each city is built on a square that yields 2 food, 1 shield, 1 trade.
Each city has a choice of 3 types of surrounding terrain to work:
1 food, 2 shield, no trade (forest)
2 food, 1 shield, 1 trade (grassland)
1 food, no shield, 2 trade (ocean)".
This choice seems quite reasonable to me (after having stressed that choice #2 refers to "rivered" or "roaded"/and shielded grassland). It expresses that in the early game one can easily trade 2 shields for 2 trade arrows (forest vs ocean) and vice versa.
(Other examples would show us that it is also easy to trade 1 food/1shield (forest vs nonroad nonshield grassland) and 1 food/1 trade arrow (ocean vs roaded plain).
Without improvements in the city, we also have 1 trade=1 gold=1 beaker (through the "tax rate" cursor).
Hence, it appears that, in the early game:
1 food=1 shield=1 arrow=1 beaker=1 gold; ...but...)).
Dave's test shows very clearly that, after 150 turns, a "shieldrich" strategy gives much better results than an "arrowrich" one.
Why do some people (like me  ) think that trade arrows should not be completely forgotten?
I'll try to answer to morrow.
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aux bords mystérieux du monde occidental
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La Fayette
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albi, france
Oct 2000
time: 06:12
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Here we are (let us hope I don't lose it this time):
Very early in the game, 1 shield = 1 food = 1 arrow = 1 gold = 1 beaker.
But
1) Food is needed for growth. Growing one's city to size 2 requires 20 food in the box, which means 10 turns with a foodsurplus of 2 (or 7 turns with a surplus of 3 in case of "bananas"). Neither shields nor arrows can be converted into food.
Hence the best one can do is a surplus of 2 during 10 turns (except "bananas"). Dave advises to do that ("grow to size 2 ASAP") and I agree.
2) Gold is no use, but can be converted into beakers (1 gold=1 beaker) if the tax rate cursor is not already set at taxmin (=40%). Gold can also be converted into shields at a minimum rate of 2 gold=1 shield (up to 8 gold=1 shield in case of rushbuilding a WoW in 1 turn).
Hence an arrowrich strategy producing gold, then converting that gold into shields is not wise at all in the very early game.
3) Beakers are the only way to climb up the tech tree, which is highly desirable. A city producing 1 or 2 trade arrows gives at best 1 beaker/turn. This should be avoided (basic idea for my "3 arrows" strategy).
4) The discovery of Monarchy radically changes the picture.
5) The discovery of Trade also radically changes the picture.
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aux bords mystérieux du monde occidental
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La Fayette
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albi, france
Oct 2000
time: 06:12
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1) Consequences of Monarchy:
Keep cool! I won't name them all again (you know them already, don't you?).
As far as food and shields and arrows are concerned, the main consequence is (IMHO):
No more limit at 2 for the food surplus (hence much faster growth of the city and/or liberty of choice of the resource squares).
(I don't forget or deny consequences upon shields or arrows, but consider them secondary to that huge "food and growth and liberty" effect).
2) Consequences of Trade:
2-1: Food caravan
Converts 50 shields into 1/2 foodbox: not a good bargain in the early game (1/2 foodbox = 25 food in a city size 4; hence 2 shields = 1 food = bad rate), but very powerful later on (1 shield = 2 food in a city size 19).
I like to use that power by means of "Starving Silicon Cities" (new topic to morrow).
2-2: "WoWs" caravan
Converts 50 shields produced (or rushbuilt) by any city into 50 shields produced in the city building the WoW. This very powerful instrument should be the only one used for building WoWs (halves the price of rushbuilding and also allows to avoid rushbuilding, by stacking the units produced in advance).
2-3: Commodity caravan
Converts 50 shields into many arrows and gold and beakers. Rule of thumb: 1 shield=1 gold=1 beaker in the early game (as stated before), hence 50 shields = 25 gold + 25 beakers gives a fair rough idea that a caravan yielding an instant bonus of 25 gold is not such a bad bargain (though we all know that much more might be written about that; read "the true value..." if you wish).
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aux bords mystérieux du monde occidental
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La Fayette
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albi, france
Oct 2000
time: 06:12
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Short conclusion
Dave's test shows very clearly that 1 shield is better than 1 arrow in most circumstances. I agree.
Dave's test also shows that ICS is very powerful. I agree.
(But IMO most of the power of ICS is due to the "double black faces" effect that I consider a bug, and I don't feel like playing it now).
I suppose that there are 3 main ways to get a good start (no preference order):
- Hardcore hut hunting
- Hardcore ICS
- Hardcore Monarchy ASAP + early Trade
The last one is my choice for the time being, but "Hut hunters and ICSers, I salute you".
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aux bords mystérieux du monde occidental
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La Fayette
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albi, france
Oct 2000
time: 06:12
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quote:
Originally posted by DaveV on 02-13-2001 09:30 AM
. I find that I can usually crank out 4 or 5 shields with no waste in my early cities. There's a huge difference in producing your third and fourth settlers in eight turns (5 shields) versus 14 turns (3 shields). My original argument was that newly established cities will be producing their own arrows to compensate for the arrows sacrificed while building settlers. If your early goal is expansion, then expand!
And, of course, balance is important. Monarchy makes a huge difference in support, corruption and waste, and building cities on rivers and on or near trade specials will pay dividends through the whole game. But my workers will always prioritize forests after the city grows to size 2. If the forest has a silk special or a river, so much the better!
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It seems that Ming and you and I agree (at least on the 3 following points):
Balance IS important,
Monarchy makes a huge difference,
Numerous shields are very helpful building settlers in the early game (...and other units and improvements later on ).
I would like to sum it up this way:
- In the early game (without improvements in the city) 1 arrow=1 gold=1 beaker.
- 2 gold (at least) are needed to buy 1 shield (hence 1 shield=2 arrows, this way)
- Before the discovery of Trade 1 shield can only be converted into 1 arrow through the use of choosing the right resource square (hence 1 shield=1 arrow this way).
It works as if there were a price to pay for freedom (gold gives freedom). Hence I agree with you that it is wiser to crank out settlers, create new cities and get the arrows from those cities (except when there is a possibility to get to Monarchy quickly with help of my "3 arrows" strategy).
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aux bords mystérieux du monde occidental
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09-02-2001 10:32
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