10-02-2001 08:12									#1
	Bad starting locations Increase Your PM Length

This is a first for me...

I set up a new game (Customize)
I chose large world, small land masses, archipelago, 5 billion years, King, raging hordes and standard rules, and I chose to be the Americans.

Ok, the game generates the world, and I am pleased to see that I am starting with four bonus techs

Alphabet, Bronze Working, Ceremonial Burial, and Pottery.

But then I remember from my browsings here at Apolyton that this may just be the game "compensating" me for a lousy starting location...

It is my habit when starting a new game to look to the right side of the screen first (the unit selection box) to see if the game has started me with one or two settlers. I got two!

Then I looked at the map portion of the screen

I don't have any screen capture software, or I would just post the screen and let the image speak for itself.

My two settlers are stranded on a one-tile island (grassland, shield) there are only two other land tiles visible (forest, and grassland, with a hut just begging to be tipped.) The rest is ocean, although there is coastline visible in 4 tiles to the south.

Looks like this (well, not really, but it's the best I can do on the fly with ASCII):

...O O
..O O O
.O O O O
..O I O (c)
.O O C F
..C O H
...C C

Where O = ocean, I = island, C = coastline, F = forest, and H = grassland with hut. the (c) = a dark tile in which the coastline is visible. (Edit: the .'s are necessary to preserve spacing...)

I think I'll play it anyway (you know mapmaking will be the *VERY* first tech I research!)

I saved the 4000 BC, if anyone wants to see it...

I guess I should be thankful that I can at least *SEE* dry land!

Has this (or worse ) ever happened to you?

-Bob





[This message has been edited by Juggler_Bob (edited February 10, 2001).]

	10-02-2001 09:05									#2
	Support Apolyton, buy Galactic Civilizations

That's pretty bad. The worst I've ever had happen to me was to be stuck on one of the poles with no connections to decent terrain. Happens quite often in x-small maps with 6-7 civs.

Then again I don't ever expect to be screwed over that badly when I pick large worlds. The worst was an island just large enough for 3 cities (not including ICS).

Now that I think about it, probably the worst start I ever had was an advanced game where my 1 size-6 city had been built on glacier! There wasn't enough food around to support even a size 1 city! I had 7 turns to race with my NON units/settlers to find a decent starting city point and build a new capital before the old one starved to death. Definitely a challenge!

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"Just got back from the Thought Police Station. It's not as bad as you might assume;
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	10-02-2001 09:08									#3
	Help yourself to an AD-FREE life

Look at it this way: your capital should be safe from attack for a long time!

Don't forget that if you put a worker on a tile with a hut, you'll lose the hut (I think).

	10-02-2001 14:46									#4
	Tired of ads?

Yuk! Not a great position to find yourself in at 4000BC. It will be of little compensation but I have seen similar poor starts - sometimes without as many as 4 starting techs.

However, bad starts make good players! You are well on the way to Monarchy and if you are forced to take a non-Monarchy science research Map Making.

Keep us posted!

-----------

SG(2)

	10-02-2001 16:44									#5
	Support Apolyton, buy Galactic Civilizations

If you are checking for two settlers - you aren't playing deity - what level are you playing? Please send me the save, sounds fun ... git1@scousers.net
Good civin'

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____________
Scouse Git[1]

"CARTAGO DELENDA EST" - Cato the Censor
"The Great Library must be built!"
"A short cut has to be challenging,
were it not so it would be 'the way'." - Paul Craven

	10-02-2001 20:51									#7
	Enter the AD-FREE zone

SG, he said King. Ming, he can't get to tip the hut because he's on a one square island.

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	10-02-2001 23:45									#8
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I am interested by the challenge. I’d like to win this one with OCC. Could you send the 4000bc saved game to me ? my e-mail is in my profile. Thanks in advance.
BTW : same thing once happened to me with a gigamap !

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Oh Man, when will you understand that your greatness lies in your failure - Goethe

	11-02-2001 05:56									#11
	Browse Apolyton AD-FREE

I get in nasty starting positions all the time.

Although not as tragic as Juggler!

I used to think it was because of bad luck or because the computer had something againsts greeks.

I later found (of course by reading the Apolyton Forums) a more logical explanation. ( 7 civs pink gets the terrain always last)

The worst was attached on South Pole with 3 squares (tundra, grassland, plains).

The funny thing was I never bothered to relocate my capital because the expansion actually was simetrical to Athens.

By the way NO UNIT EVER approached the capital in that game

	13-02-2001 00:39									#13
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Can I have it too plz

	13-02-2001 02:17									#14
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Thanks Juggler.
I've got the game. Looks tough indeed. 3 ground squares and no specials ! I'll keep everybody informed with a log.

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Oh Man, when will you understand that your greatness lies in your failure - Goethe

	13-02-2001 15:43									#15
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Where are you from Julius??!

	17-02-2001 19:45									#16
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I have never had a starting position as tough as that, but then I haven't played very much lately...

	19-02-2001 02:46									#17
	Remove this text

Poor starting locations don't determine the number of tehcs at the start.

I don't think starting locations factor in as heavily as the relative distance to the other civs and the starting locations on the map. A civ that starts in the middle of the map tends to get fewer techs while players at the edge will receive more.


For the record: On a special map (with all civs starting at the edge of the map) I once designed I got 11 techs for my civ!.

	19-02-2001 06:46									#18
	Support Apolyton, pre-order Civilization IV

1780 and only 5 more German cities to buy and game over - will post the Power Graph during the week once I have actually mopped up - good fun game - hard to play ICS with a five city civ - had to modify my normal style quite considerably...

p.s. added in edit - CapTVK 11! can I have the save please?
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____________
Scouse Git[1]

"CARTAGO DELENDA EST" - Cato the Censor
"The Great Library must be built!"
"A short cut has to be challenging,
were it not so it would be 'the way'." - Paul Craven
[This message has been edited by Scouse Gits (edited February 18, 2001).]

	21-02-2001 00:34									#19
	Support Apolyton, pre-order Civilization IV

Scouse,

I got these sort of tech start results on a special I had designed called "King of the Castle". It used set starting locations on a round map. I used to get big tech starts at every game I tested. Unfortunately I lost my originals when my HD crashed last year but the maps may still be available at kwang's site.


I did draw a quick map to see if it still works. Here are the results:
http://home-1.worldonline.nl/~thomas/misc/king2-1.gif http://home-1.worldonline.nl/~thomas/misc/king2-2.gif http://home-1.worldonline.nl/~thomas/misc/king2-3.gif

And the save for the elusive king2-2 http://home-1.worldonline.nl/~thomas/misc/king2-2.sav

	21-02-2001 05:31									#20
	Support Apolyton, buy Call to Power 2

CapTVK, you included irrigation, mining and road building in your count. Since these are always freely available, we don't count them. The maximum number of advances (from this basic starting point onward) you can get for free at the beginning of the game, is indeed 8.

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If you have no feet, don't walk on fire

	21-02-2001 14:11									#21
	Increase the size of your Attachments

Aaaah - thanks Rib! - I thought yet another piece of received wisdom had just gone down the tubes! Yes, Eight we can live with - Eleven upsets too much research!

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____________
Scouse Git[1]

"CARTAGO DELENDA EST" - Cato the Censor
"The Great Library must be built!"
"A short cut has to be challenging,
were it not so it would be 'the way'." - Paul Craven

	22-02-2001 15:46									#22
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The treacherous Germans fell in 1792 after sneakily switching to Democracy to avoid my spies they hadn't reckoned on my discovering Tactics that very turn! RIP Germany ...
The Power Graph as promised ...


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____________
Scouse Git[1]

"CARTAGO DELENDA EST" - Cato the Censor
"The Great Library must be built!"
"A short cut has to be challenging,
were it not so it would be 'the way'." - Paul Craven
[This message has been edited by Scouse Gits (edited February 22, 2001).]

	22-02-2001 17:20									#24
	Support Apolyton

Congratulations Scouse Gits. Very nice game !
I said I was going to play this saved game but never found the time. Maybe later, much later.

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Oh Man, when will you understand that your greatness lies in your failure - Goethe

	24-02-2001 03:30									#25
	Inflate your Upload Space

Could be that I was overcounting in my excitement, still 8 techs at the start is a record. But that's not the point I intended to make. The point is that tech allocation is apparently based on the relative distance to other civs and the map itself. Starting surroundings don't factor in so heavily.
If you would have taken a look at the savegame you would have noticed that the other AI civs all start with 6 techs, except one. Which is the civ in the middle of the map. It is a max distance away from other civs and has a real poor starting location. Yet it doesn't receive any techs!