25-08-2001 06:41									#1
	Greek Hopolite too powerful? Support Apolyton, buy Civilization: The Boardgame

Looking at the Greek special unit compared to the two other civ special units reveiwed already I think that the Hopolite is too powerful compared to them. The Hopolite has a defence of 3 right away in the game (they get bronze working as a free tech, and I think the Hopolite would be attached to that.) which is a big advantage. These wont become obselete for quite a while whereas the chariot and archer, with just an attack of 2 would become obselete very quickly (probably about horseback riding or polythesim) This means that early in the game the Greek cities will be very very tough to defeat...

	25-08-2001 15:20									#2
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They get bronze working, but they still need to find bronze first before they can build these hoplites. These special units will play an essential role in the game. If you have in the beginning the choice attacking the greek and another civ, you will probably make peace with the greek and attack the other one. Giving the ability to the greek to use their scientific abilities.

	25-08-2001 15:35									#3
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Yes and isn't that the whole point of unique units? You are supposed to get an advantage over the other civs, all of the civs get one and how could you possibly know if it is imbalanced before having played the game?

	25-08-2001 15:55									#4
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Historically it makes perfect sense too. The relativelly small greek city states held out against a much bigger Persian Empire. The Persians did invade several times, but were repelled every time...and the Persians where the worlds biggest and strongest empire in those days. When the romans did conquer the greeks, as the first empire in history, they were in awe of the power of the Hopolite...

	25-08-2001 15:57									#5
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I bet the Roman Legion has an Attack of 3 or 4, to relativate the advantage of the Greeks. And for me the Hoplites are powerful, yes, but I think from a historical point of view that makes sense - they were more powerful than ancient Egypt or Babylonian units.

	25-08-2001 17:19									#6
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BTW, this means the Pikeman has a defense of at least 3 or 4, since on Civ3.com it says that the Pikeman is superior in defense than the Hoplite. Interesting indeed.

	25-08-2001 18:58									#7
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I never understood what the difference between hoplites and pikemen were. They were both infantry armed with 6 foot long spears/pikes.

Is the only difference the bronze or iron spearpoint?

What exactly makes the pikemen much stronger?

I once saw i picture of a hoplite thrusting the rear end of his spear into the ground to counter a cavalry charge just as pikemen did many years later.

Does anyone have an explanation?

	25-08-2001 19:46									#8
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Fiil, I think you speak about Theban or Macedonian Hoplites equipped with Sarissas (these are the long lances ) during the 4th century BC and later? However, "normal" Greek Hoplites, especially in the classical age were equipped with much shorter lances/spears.

	25-08-2001 20:09									#9
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quote: Originally posted by BeBro Fiil, I think you speak about Theban or Macedonian Hoplites equipped with Sarissas (these are the long lances ) during the 4th century BC and later? However, "normal" Greek Hoplites, especially in the classical age were equipped with much shorter lances/spears.

Would you then classify the Theban/Macedonian hoplites as pikemen?
I was referring to the them because they are the only ones special enough to make a special unite. So I assume it is these theban/macedonian hoplites fireaxis call The Greek Hoplite.
The "normal" greek hoplites from the classical age are only spearmen in my eyes.

	25-08-2001 20:22									#10
	Re: hoplite/pikemen Got spare money?

quote: Originally posted by Fiil I never understood what the difference between hoplites and pikemen were. They were both infantry armed with 6 foot long spears/pikes. Is the only difference the bronze or iron spearpoint? What exactly makes the pikemen much stronger? I once saw i picture of a hoplite thrusting the rear end of his spear into the ground to counter a cavalry charge just as pikemen did many years later. Does anyone have an explanation?

Pikeman had considerably longer weapons. Three to five ranks could have a direct impact at the point of contact. Hoplites were generaly individual fighters with but two ranks having a direct effect on the fighting.


As far as planting the spear to receive a cavalry charge, that was a tactic from chariot times. From the earliest of times it has always been a fools errand for mounted troops to charge formed well-ordered foot troops. Missles and manuever were used by the mounted troops to disorder the foot soldiers before a charge could be attempted.

	25-08-2001 20:48									#11
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Maybe the "normal" hoplites as BeBro called them were like that but I always thought that the macedonian hoplites had just as long lances as the pikemen (in fact longer: 12 feet) and that they like the pikemen could have several lines in contact with the enemy at the same time.

But thanks for updating me on the "planting the spear" subject, I didn't know that for a fact - only assumed it would be something like that.

	26-08-2001 06:09									#12
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quote: Originally posted by BeBro to relativate the advantage of the Greeks

Relativate?

	26-08-2001 08:18									#13
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keep that hoplite long enough and my panzers will show you how powerful it is.

	29-08-2001 07:03									#14
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My Little Theory:
Spearman: 1 attack, 2 defence
Greek Hoplite: 1 attack, 3 defence
Pikeman: 1 attack, 3 defence*2 vs. 2 movement point units.

Viola, same as CivII Phalanx vs. Pikemen. I think that would make sense since they are just about the same thing. Maybe the pikeman will have the same defence points as a spearman plus the bonus, we'll just have to wait to find out.

	29-08-2001 07:34									#15
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Just a tinsy bit of fred knowledge on the subject of Hopolites. If you feel it is wrong say so.

But the time of the Xerxes invasion, the 300 Spartan Elite Hopolites send to defend Thermopylea were equiped with "lances" that from the 2nd to the third row back were still efective. they would be i believe (for the americans) 12 ft long. The spartans used a sholder to shoulder technic. So your flank would be coverd by the man beside you's shield. Your shield would be used to cover the man beside you and down the line.

And Behind the frontline the line would be 8-10 people deep. If the front row droped the row behind would move up. Also when the combat became close the 8 in the back would use their strength to propel the front soldier forward. So if the lance did not kill the enemy and it became hand to hand almost, the frontline would trample and bash the enemy.

The Hopolites (spartan) would spend a lot of time training this over and over, im sure you know of this. But some things about the tactics and time seemed to be missing. The hopolite did have the long lances at Xerxes invasion time. Which they repealed the calvary, archers, and light spearmen of the middle east. But the combined allied army of 3000-5000 is hardly equal to 2 million (stated in Xerxes history logs[true?]) so Thermopylae was lost. after 5 days i believe. again facts are getting mixed up in my head. but 4-6 days a few thousand held the pass. and gave greece the time to prepare.

So the potencey of greek defense should be shown by the hopolite. and it is not like its an offensive wonder. They juts ensure a decent defense early. one could argue that the hopolite should have a higher attack rating, but that would unbalance it. They did well in giving the hopolite superiour defense.

	29-08-2001 08:46									#16
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I agree that the hopolite should have a defence of 3, since obviously it must be a better unit than the spearman, but making the Egyptian and Babylonian special unit both 2/1/2, which is very weak. These units should have an attack of at the very least 3. And also if the Roman Legion has got an attack of 3 or 4 (likely 4) that means the normal legion has an attack of 2 or 3. Since the only thing you need to get to be able to research iron working is bronze working (according to the screenshots) that means that both the babylonian and the egyptian special units will be gone almost as soon as they came. What advantage does that give them?

	29-08-2001 17:32									#17
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	29-08-2001 18:51									#18
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quote: Originally posted by UberKruX keep that hoplite long enough and my panzers will show you how powerful it is.

It is also my impression that the panzers are strong, but of course this all speculation and it is assuming that the military units bear some resemblance to the units of Civ2. In Civ2 the turning points in military technology were gunpowder and tank warfare. I'm more worried about the panzers being imblanced than the hoplites.

But of course we don't know the exact statistical details of combat yet and maybe the panzers aren't too powerful.

	08-09-2001 13:54									#19
	Re: Re: hoplite/pikemen Support Apolyton, buy Civilization 2

quote: Originally posted by Swissy As far as planting the spear to receive a cavalry charge, that was a tactic from chariot times. From the earliest of times it has always been a fools errand for mounted troops to charge formed well-ordered foot troops. Missles and manuever were used by the mounted troops to disorder the foot soldiers before a charge could be attempted.

Which is why the main body of a Phalanx formation had the spears pointed upwards to deflect projectiles.

Good luck using that against Catapult fire though.

	09-09-2001 05:43									#20
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I can't wait to see what sort of bonuses the latter civs get. The F-15 will probably kick ass. What am I saying, it will kick ass. Because this is America!

In terms of the hoplites, the concept of a phalanx was pretty widespread throughout the ancient world. It's kind of silly to consider a phalanx different from pikemen, since pikemen were really just a reintroduction of a classical technique which was mixed with newer technology (principally crossbows and arquebuses). Still, I'd have to say that the Greek hoplites were unique in that the people who wrote the surviving history of that time (such as Herodotus), were also Greek. It just makes sense that any information we would have about them would be complimentary. Besides that, they seem aight in game terms. I'm looking forward to hiding behind my city walls as the Persians tear up my road network and destroy my colonies. Yep, that would be the life.

	09-09-2001 21:12									#21
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quote: Originally posted by Mark L When the romans did conquer the greeks, as the first empire in history, they were in awe of the power of the Hopolite...

I thought Rome was a republic, not an empire, at that time.

	10-09-2001 00:52									#22
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The Hoplites Romans faced in their conquest of Greece were actually the Macedonian Phalanx, a formation quite different than the Hoplites during the Peleponesian War. Macedonian Phalanx were characterized by long spikes and deep ranks. If set on motion on even terrains, the Macedonian Phalanx were a terrible sight and a effective killing machine. But if gaps appeared in the formation in which swordsmen could exploit, then the individual soldiers in the rank were next to helpless. The Battle of Cynocephalae in 197BC saw the first major contest between the Roman Legion and the Macedonian Phalanx. The Macedonians/Greeks were crushed because individual Roman units took initiatives in exploiting gaps within the Phalanx formation. Another battle in 168BC was again decided by gaps in Phalanx formation, but this time it was the uneven terrain that caused these gaps.


The middle age Pikemen were similar to Macedonian Phalanx in their weapons, but had vastly different tactics. Instead of operating on a front front and deep ranks, Pikemen formations were actually squares which could turn to face enemy attacks from all sides, something that was missing in the Macedonian Phalanx. Also Pikemen formations were developed to face cavalry attacks which were even more mobile than the Legions.

	10-09-2001 01:45									#23
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The defence-factor of the greek hoplite-unit too high? I leave that to others to discuss (personally, Im not worried). But if you want to trigger an Golden Age with help of an successful attack, you better hurry. As an attack-unit, hoplites becomes obsolete pretty quickly. Attack 1 & movement 1 means move out immediately and trigger that Golden Age, before its too late.

	10-09-2001 01:51									#24
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It seems that Firaxis is pitting rival civs against each other, giving each of them advantages in different time periods and making regional conflicts.

Greeks/Persians: Persians have better attack, Greeks better defense, so statistcally, its a draw
Americans/Iroquoi: Im guessing that the Iroquoi specil unit is like a warrior or something primitive, while the Americans have the f-15. This here gives a chance for the iroquoi to whup on the Americans in the Ancient ages and te amercans to whup on the iroquoi in the modern age.