27-08-2001 11:19									#31
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quote: Originally posted by introvert Germany didn't use any tanks during WWI. Only the British and French had them during WWI.

Sorry, you are misinformed:

Just to help you, this is first useful
link with a picture and tech table.

In brief,

quote: The first prototype was ready in the spring of 1917 and got the name: Sturmpanzerwagen A7V (A7V was the abbreviation from «the seventh (transport) department of General Management of Military Ministry». German: "Abteilung 7, Verkehrswesen")

And about battle, another source quote

quote: The Schwerer Kampfwagen A7V was first used at St Quentin on 21st March 1918. Although some of its features, such as the sprung tracks and the thicker armour, made it better than British tanks at that time, the A7V was less successful as a battle vehicle. The main problems concerned its mechanical reliability and the difficulty it encountered crossing enemy trenches.

AFAIK German also used some enemy tanks captured in battle.

BTW this was well covered by at least a game I played almost eight years ago: HistoryLine 1914-18 by Blue Byte

	27-08-2001 14:26									#32
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Historyline 1914-18 is a truly classic game. I would have loved to have a sequel to that game.

One of its good features were the monthly newsreels at the end of each two-monthly scenario.

	28-08-2001 00:10									#33
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TechWins

the only problem i see with your idea is that as long as your civ keeps on expanding it would be very hard for it to ever have a golden age, except if your capital could produce enough culture to bring your average up, so that would make it hard to have a golden age early on...the first city you found would cut your average culture per city in half, and each additional one would also cut it

the best thing i can think of about triggering a golden age by when you build your CSU is that you don't have to goto war, and it would be fairly easy to change

	28-08-2001 04:20									#34
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I do like the idea of a culture trigger for the Golden Age, or indeed any non-military trigger. Which lead me to thinking, how about a wonder trigger, either for the first minor or major wonder. If you choose a civ with late unique units, you are not tied to a late golden age. This way you could delay your golden age but at a cost.

Just a stray thought I wanted to put out there.

	28-08-2001 17:50									#35
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I too like the idea of a peaceful trigger for Golden Ages.

How about Golden Ages triggered when a minimum set of civ parameters are achieved, let's say 3 from the following conditions: high cultural rating, peace for more than x years, happiness higher than x for y years, also very high production, great science rate or high trade income, more than 2 wonders in the same era, and so on.

Another trigger could be the born of a non-military leader (great scientists/artists/bussinesmen/...). The problem is, what could trigger the born of a non-military leader? Or maybe a great leader should appear when a civ has great conditions in a particular area (great science -> Einstein; great cultural rating -> Elvis etc), and the golden ages could be triggered when a civ has at least 2 non-military-leaders.

Btw, golden ages: why just golden ages and not dark ages ??! Why just rise of empires and not fall of empires, too? The triggers could be exactly the opposite from those of peaceful golden ages: low happiness, high corruption, low cultural rating, losing too many battles, or ... or maybe you have better ideas about this. What do you think?

	28-08-2001 19:23									#36
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quote: Originally posted by korn469 the best thing i can think of about triggering a golden age by when you build your CSU is that you don't have to goto war, and it would be fairly easy to change

I agree. This idea seems the most sensible and balanced method of implementing the Golden Age.

Other methods, such as having high culture, high happiness, etc would lead to a "rich get richer" game. Besides of which, players with high levels of happiness in their cities are already rewarded with the "We Love the King" celebrations.

The fall of empires idea i find interesting too, but not as implemented. That would also promote the 'rich get richer' by making those civilizations struggling, struggle even more. Reading even further... the idea of a dark ages springing from multiple military failures does sound pretty good. This would even have the bonus of making the AI think twice before sending *another* wave of armies against a fortified mech-inf in a fortress on top of a mountain...

	29-08-2001 07:04									#37
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quote: the best thing i can think of about triggering a golden age by when you build your CSU is that you don't have to goto war, and it would be fairly easy to change

CSU is the Civ Specific Unit, right?
But in this case, every civ's golden ages are strictly limited to the period when they will have a CSU. I don't like the idea of predetermined golden ages. It must be a reward, a boom in a civ's history, trigerred by high cultural or scientifical rating, not a unit

I admit that "rich get richer" could be a problem. Maybe the conditions should be not high trade income or high production rate but high income / capita or high production rate / capita; so this way, small civs could have also golden ages. Many years of unbreaked peace is a good condition, too, in my opinion.

	29-08-2001 09:11									#38
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Perhaps golden ages could be based on the civ-specific abilities of that civilization (Scientific, Militaristic, Religious, etc.)

Religious - Building of first Cathedral or religious wonder, or having a certain number of culture points from religious structures.

Scientific - Building of first University or science wonder, or leading the world in science in a certain age.

Commercial - Building of first Stock Exchange, Bank or commercial wonder, or having a certain number of trade routes with other civilizations.

Militaristic - Civ-specific unit wins a battle, or conquering another civ.

Industrious - Building of first Factory

Expansionist - Covering an entire continent with 4 or more cities, or having a certain number of cities.

	29-08-2001 10:56									#39
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quote: Originally posted by Skanky Burns Besides of which, players with high levels of happiness in their cities are already rewarded with the "We Love the King" celebrations.

But is "We love the king" still here or it has been replaced by Golden ages? I don't remember anything from Firaxis about this

quote: The fall of empires idea i find interesting too, but not as implemented. That would also promote the 'rich get richer' by making those civilizations struggling, struggle even more. Reading even further... the idea of a dark ages springing from multiple military failures does sound pretty good.

But where Dark Ages the side effect of military losses?
May be only as a side effect. I suppose that a loss of culture could be more related to the loss of trade, loss of written "books", etc.

So a Civ that take a serious hit against its trade route, have destroyed many civil buildings (marketplace, library, palace), lost a wonder of the world, can risk to get a penalty "Dark ages" that limit production and tech research for a while (10 turns?).

Of course the historical know Dark Age is the lost of trade/culture/tech by itself, but if used as a game trick to hit harder a great empire than a minor one, you can considered this a way to limit the "rich get richer" effect.

	29-08-2001 13:40									#40
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Star Mouse, good ideas.
I like the civ-specific abilities related golden ages.

If the WLTK days are still in the game, then don't relate the golden ages to happiness. This doesn't mean though that we don't need a peaceful trigger!

Adm.Naismith:

The side effects of "dark ages" are easy to represent, but what could be the trigger
So decadent civilization has: high corruption, low cultural value, but what else? Maybe too many WLTK days ??!! Too many celebration, too many drunk people so no one works anymore

quote: have destroyed many civil buildings (marketplace, library, palace), lost a wonder of the world

These are good ideas, too.

Maybe we could relate somehow the dark ages to the size of empires: the bigger a civ the more chance to fall.

	30-08-2001 03:54									#41
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IMO, a good thing about golden ages linked to civ-specific units is that it allows for a greater number of "unique" civs (besides Civ3´s original 16). Remember, there are only 15 possible combinations to choose two civ-specific abilities out of six (scientific, religious etc.), but if two civs with identical abilities have CSU´s that appear in different time periods, the appropriate strategies for these civs might differ (at least slightly).

BTW, in Civ3 both the English and the Germans are considered commercial and expansionist civs, but the German CSU (the panzer) appears later in the game than the English man-o-war.

	30-08-2001 04:38									#42
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quote: the only problem i see with your idea is that as long as your civ keeps on expanding it would be very hard for it to ever have a golden age

I don't see a problem with this. Bigger is shouldn't always be better. If you are going to create a huge empire and you can't keep all parts of your empire at a high level of greatness then you shouldn't be rewarded. If you can keep your empire running great even when it's very large then you get doubel the benefits (benefits of a large empire and the golden age will occur). Having my idea will also counter act BAB which is something that is much needed.

Although, culture might not be the most accurate way to determine a golden age it is far more realistic, while not taking away from fun, than a CSU creation trigger. A golden age usually comes at a time when your nation is at peace. When you're at peace you are more likely to have a higher culturual points average than when you are at war. My reasoning on this is because you will not be increase culture in your cities when you are at war because you will be having to build military. Therefore it is logical to assume that your golden age will probably occur during peace (when you're building cultural improvements).

Overall, I think a cultural trigger is far superior to any other option for a trigger.

	30-08-2001 04:46									#43
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The Germans DID use tanks in WWI. I have Heinz Guderian's "Achtung Panzer" on my desk.

First they did not have any great quantity of their own tanks (named A7V and LKII) and they appeared 1918 - all to late in other words. They had plans to expand their few 45 tanks (30 captured) up to 800. (Compare Britain 2000 up to 7000 and France 2653 up to 8000 - 10 000).

A marginal force indeed, but it was there and it was with this the most proficent armour corps in WWII started with.

	30-08-2001 04:51									#44
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Rats, to slow to break the news

	30-08-2001 06:10									#45
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i really like starmouse's ideas. Sign this man on to the Firaxis staff immediately! His seems like they strike a fair balance and help move this game away from Barbarism 3 and towards civ 3