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King of Rasslin
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You guys don't watch a lot of westerns, do you? I see nothing wrong with calling them Indians, because you learn and discuss a lot more about Indians than people from India. At least in my school.
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Ribannah
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The Netherlands, Embassy of the Iroquois Confederacy
Aug 2000
time: 06:15
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quote:
Originally posted by King of Rasslin
Indian Languages closer to West European? I thought Indians came to America from Asia, although I hear now that there is some white blood in them, learned from a DNA test. So maybe this was OUR land all along!  |
Many white people were adopted by Amerind tribes, especially by the Iroquois, so there's bound to be some percentage of 'white blood' in them now.
Originally, they were Siberian and Tunguz hunters who crossed the landbridge where we now have the Bering Sreet.
quote:
Also, there was a statue in Central America that is supposed to be really old that looks like a black person. I think American Indians are just every race mixed up, since they are very unique compared to the others. |
I know which statue(s) you mean. It has been suggested that some African explorers reached the Americas, met the Olmec and became local leaders: aside from the statues, some Olmec kings have names that sound suspiciously African.
quote:
Originally posted by King of Rasslin
You guys don't watch a lot of westerns, do you? I see nothing wrong with calling them Indians, because you learn and discuss a lot more about Indians than people from India. At least in my school. |
I see you still have your little problem of considering your school the center of the world. 
There are a LOT more Indian movies (the real India) than there are westerns. I estimate at least 1000 times as many.
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Lord Merciless
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quote:
Originally posted by Ribannah
Still, the question remains: what did the Aztecs accomplish besides building a large city and conquering some close neighbours? |
Written language, Literature, Astronomy, a sophiscated Bureaucracy, professional Specializations, Currency, organized Religion(Polytheism), Mathematics, Construction, and enough logistical skills to plan and to build a city for 200,000.
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Lord Merciless
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quote:
Originally posted by King of Rasslin
You guys don't watch a lot of westerns, do you? I see nothing wrong with calling them Indians, because you learn and discuss a lot more about Indians than people from India. At least in my school. |
You need to open your eyes and see the world beyond your (high)school. People will start respecting you if you stop making yourself the center of the world.
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Ribannah
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The Netherlands, Embassy of the Iroquois Confederacy
Aug 2000
time: 06:15
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quote:
Originally posted by Lord Merciless
Written language, Literature, Astronomy, a sophiscated Bureaucracy, professional Specializations, Currency, organized Religion(Polytheism), Mathematics, Construction, and enough logistical skills to plan and to build a city for 200,000. |
Which of these did the Aztecs develop (as opposed to inherit / learn from others)?
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Lord Merciless
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quote:
Originally posted by Ribannah
Which of these did the Aztecs develop (as opposed to inherit / learn from others)? |
Everyone learns from their ancestors or neighbors. What about Romans? Didn't they first conquer the Etruscans, then Samnites, then Carthaginians, then Greeks, then Gauls, and inherited much of their cultures? Even the style of the imperial legionary helmet was copied from the Gauls. Archaelogically, this helmet is called to be of the "Imperial Gallic" style. By your logic, Romans didn't invent anything on their own, but only conquered and stole the knowledge from others.
Zhou, a semi-barbarian people and founder of the same-named dynasty, conquered and inherited much of the Shang culture, which was considered the origin of the Chinese culture. 400 years after overthrowing Shang, Zhou were themselves being driven from their ancestry homeland by Barbarians. Later one of these barbarian tribe acknowledged the hegemony of the Zhou king and was appointed the Duke of Chin. Well, the name China is derived from this state Chin. In another 500 years, Chin would become firmly integrated into the Zhou culture and would go on to unify the Realm. China was born. By your logic, Chinese didn't invent anything on their own, but only conquered and stole the knowledge of others.
By your logic, all later civilizations who learnt or inherited knowledge from their ancestors didn't invent anything on their own, but only conquered and stole the knowledge of others.
However, I'll concede that unlike Romans, Chinese, and many others, Aztecs didn't add much value to the knowledge they inherited. But still, I think without much value added, Aztecs have achieved far more than Iroquois and co who couldn't even build something called 'City'.
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King of Rasslin
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"You need to open your eyes and see the world beyond your (high)school. People will start respecting you if you stop making yourself the center of the world."
I don't know a thing about these foreign cultures, and I took world history last year. We mainly covered Eygpt, Sumeria, Rome, Greece, and Europe. The Middle East got a little exposure when we talked about the crusades, but that was mainly a European event. We will take more American history this year. It's sad that other cultures are either too primitive to have any culture or too weak/isolationist to show the world what they have.
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King of Rasslin
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They never really wanted to contact the West, so they aren't influential in our (American) history. They didn't want to get involved with us unless it was for guns. In fact, they would only trade with the Arabs, and the Arabs traded the goods to Europe. That was the only way we knew about the East, besides Marco Polo going there. And he was very lucky to make it there, as well as come back alive.
The East is still very isolationist. They don't even teach Kung Fu in GA, and you would have to go to Tibet or China learn it. I think Eastern culture will be taught more when they want it to be taught. For now, they don't want to mess with us.
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Q Cubed
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t3h y3ll0w p3ril
Apr 1999
time: 23:15
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quote:
I don't know a thing about these foreign cultures, and I took world history last year. We mainly covered Eygpt, Sumeria, Rome, Greece, and Europe. The Middle East got a little exposure when we talked about the crusades, but that was mainly a European event. We will take more American history this year. It's sad that other cultures are either too primitive to have any culture or too weak/isolationist to show the world what they have. |
but see, that's just it. the other cultures are NOT too primitive. they just have the dumb luck of not being in the west--where those textbooks are written. i hate to tell you this, but if you went to high school in atlanta, or even athens, you'd get that exposure to the other cultures-- indians, east asians, etc. and even then, the exposure you'd get would be limited, not because they're too weak or some sh1t like that as you keep thinking, but because they're not european.
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They never really wanted to contact the West, so they aren't influential in our (American) history. |
i guess your studies in american history are also incomplete. why? because the transcontinental railroad was constructed largely with asian assistance-- chinese immigrants built the damn railroad straigh through the rockies. not blacks, not whites, but asians. that's pretty damn influential, don't you think?
what about in the twentieth century? that little thing, uh, what was it called... pearl harbor? you're right, that's irrelevant. nothing came out of it. 
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They didn't want to get involved with us unless it was for guns. |
might i remind you that asia had gunpowder long before you europeans? and that we did have cannons before you europeans even came?
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In fact, they would only trade with the Arabs, and the Arabs traded the goods to Europe. That was the only way we knew about the East, besides Marco Polo going there. And he was very lucky to make it there, as well as come back alive. |
actually, no. the romans did have a trade with the chinese, but it was mediated along the silk road. so did the europeans. the reason why there was no direct european trade with the east was not because of isolation, but more because of the sheer distance involved, and the fact that the "arabs", as you put it, were smack dab in the middle. marco polo left for china precisely because he'd heard about the east from the traders, but he did not have much difficulty in going or departing-- the silk road was a very well traveled caravan route.
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The East is still very isolationist. They don't even teach Kung Fu in GA, and you would have to go to Tibet or China learn it. |
the east is not very isolationist these days. what gives you that idea? what makes you think that kung fu is the be all and end all of asian civilization? the reason they don't teach kung fu in georgia is because kung fu is a very limited part of the vast group of physical combat known as the martial arts. other forms of it-- from asia-- are taught in georgia. tae kwon do (korea); karate (japan); aikido, hapkido, jujitsu, kendo, kempo... all taught in georgia. so don't go pulling some bullsh1t out of your arse saying it's not taught in georgia, because i've lived there for 18 years of my life.
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I think Eastern culture will be taught more when they want it to be taught. For now, they don't want to mess with us. |
except, it is starting to get taught. and in case you haven't noticed, the asians are messing with the united states. you've got china and taiwan, pretty much one of the biggest concerns of the us foreign policy, outside of skorea and nkorea; the vast majority of electronic and computer components are now built -and designed, in some cases- in korea, japan, and taiwan. do you have a cell phone? chances are some of the components are asian. what about gaming systems? sega, nintendo, sony, all japanese-- with parts manufactured in asia. the us and china are constantly sparring over trade agreements, human rights, and political one-upmanship.
there is a veritable plethora of different asian restaurants in any city of appreciable size; major universities teach rigorous courses on east asian and south asian history. not only that, most of them teach the languages of those cultures, too. and most asian communities have cultural organizations in major cities-- large enough to hold cultural festivals.
your problem, kor, is that you're too closed-minded and ignorant of what's really happening that you're ending up saying things which are flat out wrong. here's a thought: do some research. open your eyes, and find out that the united states is just the most powerful country in a world full of powerful countries--and is constantly trying to make sure it stays at the top of the pack of many which seek to one-up the us. don't make assumptions based on what little knowledge you have-- it's not working.
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yellfromhell
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Montevideo, Uruguay
Jun 2002
time: 05:15
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King of Russlin,
1) Every person has culture (I say this because you said "It's sad that other cultures are either too primitive to have any culture". Its imposible to live outside any form of culture because thats the main difference between us and the other animals. The bees have a society, and so the ants, but they dont have culture.
2) A culture is not worse or better because a person from other culture judges it. There`s an enormous probability that a person inserted in one culture wont trully understand the logic that holds a different culture. There cant be complete understanding in the clash of 2 different logics.
3) A culture is not worse or better because of its 'weakness' or power to impose itself over other cultures. Certainly there are weak and powerfull cultures, but that isnt the only parameter to take in account. One thing that can be said about culture is that is what makes us possible to adapt ourselves to a certain atmosphere, circunstance, sorroundings, ambient, etc, and to transform all this to improve our life conditions. Therefore, a culture may be weaker than another in terms of power to impose itself over others, but may also be more suitable for certain circunstances than the powerfull one, or may be more respectful for the enviroment, or may be more pacific, etc, etc, all extremelly good thinks that deserve to be considered too.
Hugs
Yellfromhell
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Lord Merciless
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quote:
Originally posted by King of Rasslin
They never really wanted to contact the West, so they aren't influential in our (American) history. They didn't want to get involved with us unless it was for guns. In fact, they would only trade with the Arabs, and the Arabs traded the goods to Europe. That was the only way we knew about the East, besides Marco Polo going there. And he was very lucky to make it there, as well as come back alive.
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The West before the 15th century was barbaric and backward, there wasn't a hell lot to be gained by contacting the West. Certainly the Mongols preferred to participate in the election of their Khans than looting the West in 1241.
The geographic distance also played a role why the Far East had to little contact with the Far West before the Age of Sails. Until a safe naval route could be opened, a journey of 6,000+ miles was simply too hazardous, as you already pointed out with the Marco Polo example.
In the end, it was the Eastern arrogance that doomed their past dominance, a similar arrogance you showed in your posts. Fortunately, not every American thinks like you, because if that happens, you repeat the same mistakes made other cultures in the past.
quote:
The East is still very isolationist. They don't even teach Kung Fu in GA, and you would have to go to Tibet or China learn it. I think Eastern culture will be taught more when they want it to be taught. For now, they don't want to mess with us. |
Why do you think the East is isolationist? How about the Americans are being isolationist? Your attitude shows that you don't care about other cultures and also never bothers to find out more. Karate schools are everywhere in the US, there is even one I know of in a small city called Boulder.
What do you think where your shoes, clothes, toys, TVs, stereos, computer parts(except processors), and steels are made? They are not made here in the US, but in China, Malaysia, Japan, South Korea, and Taiwan. I'm 90% sure that the motherboard of the computer you are posting to the Apolyton from is Made in Taiwan.
As I already suggested, learn more about the world around you, then you will be respected. With knowledge comes the power.
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GhengisFarb
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I want my HAMBURGERS!!
May 2002
time: 23:15
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quote:
Originally posted by Lord Merciless
However, I'll concede that unlike Romans, Chinese, and many others, Aztecs didn't add much value to the knowledge they inherited. But still, I think without much value added, Aztecs have achieved far more than Iroquois and co who couldn't even build something called 'City'. |
While the Iroquois may not have contributed ancient temple sites, sacrificial artifacts, and tons of silver/gold loot, they did contribute concepts and ideas that caused the existence of the United States and modern democracy.
The basic concept for a single nation formed and empowered by smaller subnations who retain their individuality came from the Iroquois. They also contributed to the concepts and ideas of freedom and gender equality.
When the founding fathers of the US were deciding on a system of government, Ben Franklin, Thomas Jefferson, John Adams, and George Washington were all familiar with the Iroquois system and agreed it was the best suited for the new nation's needs.
Other political philosophers such as Locke, Roussea, More, and Hobbes studied and were influenced by the Iroquois' concepts and later both Marx and Engels drew on Iroquois models to support their theories and designs.
While they may not have been the largest or most 'civilized' of the North American tribes they did have a profound cultural impact on Western Civilization.
How many Western Nations are still ruled directly by Monarchs?
All hail Liechtenstein! Yay!
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Lord Merciless
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quote:
Originally posted by GhengisFarb
While the Iroquois may not have contributed ancient temple sites, sacrificial artifacts, and tons of silver/gold loot, they did contribute concepts and ideas that caused the existence of the United States and modern democracy.
The basic concept for a single nation formed and empowered by smaller subnations who retain their individuality came from the Iroquois. They also contributed to the concepts and ideas of freedom and gender equality.
When the founding fathers of the US were deciding on a system of government, Ben Franklin, Thomas Jefferson, John Adams, and George Washington were all familiar with the Iroquois system and agreed it was the best suited for the new nation's needs.
Other political philosophers such as Locke, Roussea, More, and Hobbes studied and were influenced by the Iroquois' concepts and later both Marx and Engels drew on Iroquois models to support their theories and designs.
While they may not have been the largest or most 'civilized' of the North American tribes they did have a profound cultural impact on Western Civilization.
How many Western Nations are still ruled directly by Monarchs?
All hail Liechtenstein! Yay! |
Can you prove your assertions that the great Western thinkers derived many of their concepts from Iroquois?
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GhengisFarb
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I want my HAMBURGERS!!
May 2002
time: 23:15
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quote:
Originally posted by Lord Merciless
Can you prove your assertions that the great Western thinkers derived many of their concepts from Iroquois? |
quote:
Originally posted by Ribannah
What is there to prove? Read their works, they were not exactly shy to mention their admiration of the Iroquois.
Why don't you just Google on "Friedrich Engels Iroquois", for starters. |
Ribannah is correct, they specifically mention in word and actually write down the word 'Iroquois' in their own writings. (although it's probably spelled different than in English, but then again Iroquois did originate from the French).
Ben Franklin tried for 20 years to get the colonies to adopt a confederation similiar to the Iroquois BEFORE the Decalaration of Independence. Read ANY transcript of his debates on the topic recorded from the Continental Congress or his debates and bill, that was eventually defeated in the Albany Congress.
If you want me to write down the page numbers and paragraphs, you'll have to wait as I don't currently don't have time to take a vacation and document every mention of the word 'Iroqouis' in all of the above mentioned authors writings.
You can do an internet search of "Iroquois" and either "Declaration of Independence", "Ben Franklin" (definitely their most avid supporter), or "Confederation" or any of those other thinkers mentioned above.
The fact that our government was based on the Iroquois Confederation isn't anything new in the US, we've always been pretty straight forward about it. Unfortunately, our textbooks rarely mention anything about Native Americans other than they sold Manhattan for a bunch of beads and then they killed Custer (not sure if that was in retaliation for the beads). I've been fortunate enough to volunteer/work with Red Earth (the Native American inter-tribal history and culture organization in the US) for the last 12 years, one of the few perks to living in Oklahoma.
Extremely off topic, as if this Iroquois discussion has anything to do with Korea, Ben Franklin continued to support the Confederation even after it became obvious that a stronger central government and less autonomy for the states was needed to secure the stability of the US. Frankilin lost that battle and the Constitution of United States was the result.
It was exactly that lack of strong central authority that destroyed the Iroquois Confederacy. Which is to say the Iroquois didn't invent Modern Democracy all by themselves, many others added their concepts and refinements along the way.
Last edited by GhengisFarb on 26-07-2002 at 19:19
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Lord Merciless
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Interesting. Do they teach this history in American schools? I went to high school in Europe.
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Q Cubed
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t3h y3ll0w p3ril
Apr 1999
time: 23:15
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Well, they do teach history. But unless you go to a good school, i.e., one in the city, with strong community support, with much funding, you prolly will get a piss-poor education in it, as evidenced by KoR.
Besides, American textbooks tend to focus entirely on western history; somewhat understandable, since american history is that of the west-- but instead of calling it "History of Western Civilization" or the like, they still call it "World History"-- and do so, by putting in two to three token chapters about africa and maybe two on asia.
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GhengisFarb
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I want my HAMBURGERS!!
May 2002
time: 23:15
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quote:
Originally posted by Q Cubed
Well, they do teach history. But unless you go to a good school, i.e., one in the city, with strong community support, with much funding, you prolly will get a piss-poor education in it, as evidenced by KoR. |
Some of the younger (16 and under) members posting here are from small private schools which tend to concentrate on a very specific and somewhat biased curriculum.
quote:
Originally posted by Q Cubed
Besides, American textbooks tend to focus entirely on western history; somewhat understandable, since american history is that of the west-- but instead of calling it "History of Western Civilization" or the like, they still call it "World History"-- and do so, by putting in two to three token chapters about africa and maybe two on asia. |
My high school was in a small town of about 45,000, but I don't think any American High Schools deviate much from Western Civilization in the history classes. Even in college, courses on Eastern Civilization are very rare.
Which is sad because the Orient and Africa have quite a bit of history that most Americans never learn about.
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Lord Merciless
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quote:
Originally posted by GhengisFarb
Historical? How about ALL education in America.
Not a day goes by that I don't walk in to a store and the register rings up some total like $10.05. I hand the young cashier a $20 bill and nickel. The cashier will look at me all confused, hand me the nickel and say "I don't need this, its only $10.05 and the $20 is enough."
Then the cashier promptly hands me my change of $9.95.
Whose bright idea was it to do away with grades and tests in our public education system. Yeah, some kids got held back a grade and suffered a blow to their self esteem. But when then graduated they COULD READ!
What's America's illiteratcy rate now 28%?  |
Yeah, but other countries have their shares of morons, too, if not more. It appears to me that every country is bashing their own education system, whether it's China, Germany, Italy, or Japan.
You have to recognize that the American education system actually improved some over the liberal excesses from the 70s to the early 90s, and that America still has the best universities in the world.
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25-07-2002 01:26
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