31-08-2001 18:29									#121
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quote: From observing this thread I would have to say, MarkL, that you do come off sounding quite narrow-minded and arrogant for a philosopher.

Philosophers are far from open minded most of the times. Hegel and Wittgenstein thought they answered all the questions in the world with their theories.

quote: I don't mean this as an insult; I don't know anyone here personally so I can't judge.

Feel free to express your opinion about me, I don't mind at all

quote: I just wanted to point out that you seem to be implying through your posts that only Europeans have really accomplished anything and are the only ones worthy of being in the top 16 or whatever in Civ 3.

My choice for the civ 3 civs.

Europe: Romans, Germans, French, English, Spanish, Russia
Asia: China, India, Persians, Babylonians, Arabs
America: Incas, Aztecs, Americans
Africa: Egyptians, Carthagians/Phoenicians

6 European
5 Asian
3 American
2 African

Hardly Euro-centric at all is it. they only have one civ more than the Asians.

quote: If there is no Japan or Korea then that only leaves us with China to represent far eastern Asia. I hardly think that's right.

There's only one civ in Africa south of the Sahara, and two civs in Africa in total. And it's the second largest continent in the world!! Also, there isn't one single civ in south America. Anyways, I'd rather have the Khmer in the game instead of the Japanese.

quote: Can't remember back to the 13th largest economy in the world, eh?

There's more to an economy than it's place in a ranking list. Also, Italy, Holland, Saudi-Arabia and Brazil are among the top nations economically. Nobody calls the Brazilian economy great, do they?

quote: That makes no sense. Language barrier?

No. They do teach Oriental Philosophy in, for instance, Amsterdam. But all my profs say that though it's interesting, and certainly up to par with Aquino and Plato, it is no match for the more sophisticated philosophies of Kant and Hegel.

quote: Why, cause I don't buy your 30 second search on the Encarta CD?

I know quite a bit about the Norman history in Malta.

quote: Did you even know that his opinion is a minority, revisionist one?

Same goes for your Korean "claims".

	31-08-2001 18:41									#122
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Did you even know that his opinion is a minority, revisionist one?

quote: Same goes for your Korean "claims".

Wrong again. These facts I have given you about Korea are not disputed. Your Viking passage starts off basically saying, "Well, we don't really know how disruptive they were, so let's talk about their cool jewelry." And 'revisionist' means going against all the current facts and trying to turn them upsidedown or come to new conclusions.

The facts about Korea have been buried. There is nothing to revise in the sense that Korean history is only now being given attention in the modern sense. Why? Please re-read my entire thread.

quote: Philosophers are far from open minded most of the times. Hegel and Wittgenstein thought they answered all the questions in the world with their theories.

Yes, but at least they made sense when they argued their opinions. You've quite a way to go...

	31-08-2001 18:43									#123
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By the way, I think you might have posted while I was putting up econ data on the other page. I'm dying to see you weasel out of that one. Just suck it up and admit your "It's economy is crap" comment just showed more ignorance on your part.

Unless you want to say that the Neatherlands has and EVEN CRAPPIER economy than S.Korea...which would be true, eh?

	31-08-2001 18:58									#124
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quote: Wrong again. These facts I have given you about Korea are not disputed.

Ask the Japanese. And apparantly they are revisionist, since most people, both laymen and scolars, still think the Japanese civ is more "important" than the Korean one.

quote: Yes, but at least they made sense when they argued their opinions. You've quite a way to go...

Well duh If I was at the same level as Hegel I wouldn't be here now...I'd be quite famous then So how can you expect me to be at their level? lol.

quote: Unless you want to say that the Neatherlands has and EVEN CRAPPIER economy than S.Korea...which would be true, eh?

According to a list by The Economist, and others as well, Holland was standing #2 in 1999 as "best economy of the world" and #1 in 2000. Korea was around #8 I believe. Despite all the statistics that don't mean jack, the business climate in Holland is ten times better than in Korea.

(I'm expecting you to reply by saying that The Economist is a worthless piece of paper that doesn't mean anything...or something along those lines. Please try to surprise me ok?)

	31-08-2001 19:01									#125
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quote: Ask the Japanese.

LOL!!!!!!! Oh Lord. This is one of the best Trolls ever! I take it all back, Mark. You are a friggen genius!

	31-08-2001 19:20									#126
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We all know you hate Japan. Anyhow, for decades, Japan had a more democratic governement than Korea. And let's not talk about North Korean policies, shall we? They probably twist history around as much as the Chinese. You are very one side by only talking about the south...shall we talk about the reds in the north? How about the people dieing from hunger there? Let's talk about the greatness of North Korea! The Low Countries are split too, Netherlands and Belgium, but both are democratic and wealthy, eventhough we had fought a war in the past (and more than one too). Korea can learn from that.

	31-08-2001 19:23									#127
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You win, Mark. Your logic is just too damn tight. I can now understand why you think it will take you a good long time to make sense.

	31-08-2001 20:24									#128
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quote: We all know you hate Japan. Anyhow, for decades, Japan had a more democratic governement than Korea. And let's not talk about North Korean policies, shall we? They probably twist history around as much as the Chinese.

Twist around history as much as the Chinese? Since when did China start twisting history around? I mean it put rightful claims on what it achieved and never more. What in hell are you talking about? I think you meant Japan, a country which caused so much inhuman atrocities it doesn't even have the balls to admit.

	31-08-2001 21:22									#129
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quote: Since when did China start twisting history around?

Communism cencors everything...including textbooks in schools.

	31-08-2001 22:51									#130
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MarkL, to say that philosophy is essentially non-existant in Asian thought belies either what a stupid bigot you are, or a troll, as has been suggested. I suspect the latter. That a student of philosophy could weild such amazingly weak logical skills as you have in this thread is truly a wonder. I suspect it's only to protect your own opinions from truth, and to rile others.

You seem to think that because you know nothing about a topic, it must not be anything worth knowing. What an arrogant fool.

Ik schaam mij voor je, jongen. Ge eerst iets over een onderwerp leren voor je erover gaat lullen.

	31-08-2001 22:57									#131
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quote: MarkL, to say that philosophy is essentially non-existant in Asian thought

I'm afraid you misunderstood me. Philosophy exist very much in Asian thought. However, Asian thinking is essentially non-existent in modern philosophy. If you talk about ancient or medieval times, then Asian philosophy was indeed great. But in modern times Asian philosophies don't play a role in modern philosophical thinking.

	01-09-2001 00:48									#132
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quote: Originally posted by Mark L I'm afraid you misunderstood me. Philosophy exist very much in Asian thought. However, Asian thinking is essentially non-existent in modern philosophy. If you talk about ancient or medieval times, then Asian philosophy was indeed great. But in modern times Asian philosophies don't play a role in modern philosophical thinking.

Good, perhaps I overreacted and did misunderstand. My mistake. The context seemed to point toward all time, not just modern.

	01-09-2001 00:50									#133
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quote: Originally posted by yin26 There are some exceptions...shipping in Pusan, for example, but mainly: "If you want to succeed, go to Seoul." That has been the way of thinking.

I was in Pusan for Christmas 1963 and again in mid to late Jan 1964, and Pusan was a very sad site then. Their down town was only 3 or 4 blocks long and maybe 3 blocks wide, with lot of shacks heading for the mountain.
I'm sure Pusan has change alot since I was there.
Yin; a good report, I liked the Korean people.

	01-09-2001 00:56									#134
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quote: Good, perhaps I overreacted and did misunderstand. My mistake. The context seemed to point toward all time, not just modern.

I'm sorry for making it seem that way. I am fully aware of Asia's rich and sophisticated philosophies from ancient and medieval times. Quite amazing actually. But my main field of interest is the modern philosophy...from Descartes, or better, Kant onwards. In that field of philosophy, the modern philosphy, Asian thinking has little to offer. You can get mad or upset about it, but that's just the way it is. There are no great Asian philosophers in this, or the last few centuries, that can be compared to Kant, Hegel, Wittgenstein or Heidegger. (yes I know, all from the German school I'm personally more leaning towards German continental philosophies, though the french and anglo-saxon philosophies have quite a bit to offer too in modern times.)

	01-09-2001 03:07									#135
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Mark L:

quote: Communism cencors everything...including textbooks in schools.

You are one the biggest jokers I've ever seen. Communism may censor things but how does that twist history? Have you even read Chinese textbooks? How do you know they twist history. Don't question me, because I read them. None of them tried to twist history, I mean there is nothing to twist about. Unlike the Japanese history, which there must be a lot to be hidden.

Mark, You are speaking out of idiocy, man no wonder Yin or any other person cannot reason with you. You are full of false crap.

	01-09-2001 04:07									#136
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Communists do twist history. At least they said that South Koreans and Americans started the Korean War. A friend of mine told me that was what he learned back in the High School, but not until he came into the States did he know the truth.

	01-09-2001 06:45									#137
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Oh like democracy don't? What does American textbooks say about the Korean war?

	01-09-2001 08:13									#138
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quote: Originally posted by YefeiPi Oh like democracy don't? What does American textbooks say about the Korean war?

"MacArthur had his butt kicked by the Chinese because of his own arrogance."

American history books usually overemphasize their own achievements while ignoring others(British, Soviets). But they don't twist facts beyond recognition except for people with extreme agendas.

Reading German history books about WWII can probably give you the best account. It's truly remarkable how they handled that infamous history of their own.

	01-09-2001 16:43									#139
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quote: Communists do twist history.

Thank you

quote: Reading German history books about WWII can probably give you the best account. It's truly remarkable how they handled that infamous history of their own.

True indeed. I've read a few...a lot more balanced than American or French ones

	01-09-2001 20:13									#140
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quote: Communists do twist history.

Don't government of all types twist history? Why point out communism in particular? I mean Japan is no communist country, but they tried to hide their embarassing military history by revising their history textbooks. What does that make them? I mean communist country do not twist history any more than other types of government, can you say democracy is not?

	01-09-2001 20:24									#141
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quote: I mean communist country do not twist history any more than other types of government

Yes they do! In Russia, Trotski was completely erased from history to give just one example. He was even cut out of pictures of him with Lenin, to make it seem he never really existed.

	01-09-2001 21:09									#142
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quote: Originally posted by YefeiPi Don't government of all types twist history? Why point out communism in particular? I mean Japan is no communist country, but they tried to hide their embarassing military history by revising their history textbooks. What does that make them? I mean communist country do not twist history any more than other types of government, can you say democracy is not?

I was under the impression that you didn't think Communists were twisting history. Now I think we are on the same page. All nations do twist histories, but there is also the question how much they spin? In this aspect, Communists are the master of spin doctors.

	01-09-2001 21:16									#143
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YiFeiPi, I understand that you feel greatly attached to China. But you should never confuse patriotism with the love for a party. The Chinese Communist Party does not represent China despite its claim, and fact is that this party has committed tremendous crime and caused massive suffering against Chinese people. They are only in power because some of their members recognized the follies of the past and tried to be more considerate to the people.

	02-09-2001 02:52									#144
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However, western manipulation is also very well known. I just can't stand the fact that Mark L is pointing out communism in particular, not that I myself is a communist or anything.

	02-09-2001 02:59									#145
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quote: Originally posted by YefeiPi However, western manipulation is also very well known. I just can't stand the fact that Mark L is pointing out communism in particular, not that I myself is a communist or anything.

I agree that Mark L. is a Eurocentrist ***.

	02-09-2001 11:14									#146
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Mark L:
the second you mentioned "the reds to the north" and lumped Korea together, you lost all your credibility.

	02-09-2001 11:16									#147
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quote: Originally posted by Transcend "MacArthur had his butt kicked by the Chinese because of his own arrogance."

MacArthur wanted to nuke the entire Yellow River, as a message to all the reds

	02-09-2001 11:22									#148
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also, i will agree that american ethnocentricism (heh, american ethnicity ) is all over our history books, and yes, we make our enemies in war out to be the bad guys, who we HAD to fight, and HAD to kill.

it's getting a bit different now, we are actualy allowed to question the books.

lovely arguments about how we shouldn't have went to Vietnam in the first place.

McCarthy-ism made communists out to be godless scumbags who oppose everything America stands for, in the eyes of the American people, but they really weren't.

also, as a kicker to this post, i read a local paper recenty, and they asked a question to the locals, about China hosting the olympics and their human rights violations.

this one guy, not a real good looker, or thinker for that matter had this to say.

"China should not host the olympics because they are Communist. The olympics are all about all the nations of the world comming together in peace and competing. Communists do not want peace. They want to tear the world apart."

what a lamer.

Marx wrote that Socialism should be a "world-wide revolution" and that the earth should unite under one flag.

	02-09-2001 16:59									#149
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Communism is good. I think it would be nice if a country actually tried it out

	02-09-2001 21:55									#150
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quote: Originally posted by UberKruX lovely arguments about how we shouldn't have went to Vietnam in the first place.

Monday morning quarterbacks are always better than just before game time Sunday morning.

quote: McCarthy-ism made communists out to be godless scumbags who oppose everything America stands for, in the eyes of the American people,

They do oppose what we stand for.

quote: but they really weren't.

You have not live long enough to make that statement. Or did you live in the fifty.

quote: this one guy, not a real good looker, or thinker for that matter had this to say.

What does it matter what he look like. He has a opinion that you don't agree with that is all.

quote: "China should not host the olympics because they are Communist. The olympics are all about all the nations of the world comming together in peace and competing. Communists do not want peace. They want to tear the world apart."

Do you realize how many Soviet Generals wanted to start a war with us over the years? And China Top General wrote a few month ago that they should used their Nuc. against us now.