25-08-2001 16:25									#1
	Contemporary World Scenario Put an end to popups!

Greetings,

I have been planning a contemporary world scenario for the soon-coming Civ III for quite some time now over in the Civ III-General forum here at Apoloyton. I have been getting lot’s of helpful suggestions as to the layout and design of the scenario over there from many kind civ players. However, it has been recommended to me that I may be able to find much needed technical advice and assistance over here at the Scenario League forum. I understand that some of you may be busy working/planning scenarios of your own, or maybe planning a real world scenario of your own, but if that’s the case, why not pool our work and resources to make an even better scenario? Hopefully I have your interest.

If you are wondering what areas I need help with, here’s what I am good at and stuff I need help with.

Stuff I can do:

Scenario Design
City Placement
Unit Placement
Tech Layout and Programming
Event Programming
Real Life Research to get facts, statistics, etc. (many seem willing to help in this)

Stuff I need *you* for:

Map Editing/Creation
Graphic Creation/Editing
Sound Editing

Stuff I *could* use you for:

Help in City Placement
Help in Research

If you are interested, please E-mail or respond here in this thread. For more info about what I have in mind, you can check out the thread about this scenario at the Civ3 forum by clicking here . The thread is a little on the long side (5 pages) so I understand if you would rather not read it . Here is just some general info on what I am aiming for in this scenario:

Basically a Civ2 World Scenario (typical type) except:

More Civs: The number of Civs Civ3 will allow are 16 using the scenario editor, however not all screens will show ALL 16 civs. This could be a MAJOR problem (for example: only 8 civs showing up on the diplo screen = you can’t do diplomacy with the other 8, not good). But, to know for sure, we will just have to wait for the game and see how it works. I currently have an 8 civ layout, 9 civ layout, and a 13 civ layout for this scenario (all shown below).

Map: If possible, I think it would be *very cool* if someone could make an enlarged earth map (maybe 4-6X larger than Civ2's), are there any plans for this? If no, then I suppose I can use the default Civ3 world map that ships with the game, which may be bigger than the old Civ2 map.

Tech: As far as future techs, they are something I want to add. Keep in mind here nothing outrageous, (nothing like city forcefields, walking robots, nano tech, etc) I am just thinking Integrated Defense, Cure for Cancer, International Space Station, Trip to Mars, etc. To be honest, I haven’t spent that much time thinking about the tech (yet).

Here’s the Geo-Political Breakdown that has been discussed:

Eight Civs, order from strongest to weakest:

1: US + Puerto Rico, Canada, Israel

2: EU + Eastern Europe

3: China +Vietnam, Laos, North Korea, Mongolia

4: CIS

5: Independent Democratic Nations: Australia, NZ, Papua/New Guinea, Indonesia, Malaysia inc Singapore, Brahmaputra, Burma, Thailand, Kampuchea, Philippines, Taiwan, Japan, S. Korea, Latin America with the exception of Cuba

6: Arab League: Morroco, Algeria, Tunisia, Libya, Iraq, Egypt, Jordan, Saudi Arabia, Syria, Lebanon, the Gulf States + Pakistan, Afghanistan, Iran, Bangladesh

7: India +Nepal, Sri Lanka

8. African Union

A ninth Civ, if available, would be used to make Latin America separate (inc Cuba). Once Latin America was seperated, the Independent Democratic Nations would be renamed to Independent APEC Nations.

Full 13 civs, strongest to weakest:

Order from Strongest to Weakest:

1. US, Canada, Israel, Puerto Rico

2. EU (+Turkey, Baltics, Switzerland, Hungary, Czech Republic, Slovakia, Romania, Poland, Bulgaria, Yugoslavia etc.)
3. China (+Vietnam, Laos, North Korea, Mongolia)

4. CIS

5. India (+Nepal, Sri Lanka)

6. Arab League (Morroco, Algeria, Tunisia, Libya, Iraq, Egypt, Jordan, Saudi Arabia, Syria, Lebanon, and the Gulf States)

7. APEC (from Indonesia to S. Korea, including Singapore and Japan)

8. MercoSur (Brazil, Argentina, Uruguay, Paraguay, Chile)

9. Central America and Carribean Basin (inc. Mexico and Cuba)

10. Andean Pact (Peru, Colombia, Ecuador, Venezuela, Bolivia and the Guayanas)

11. African Union (Sub-sahara Africa)

12. Australia (+ NZ, Papua New Guinea)

13. Independent Islamic States (Pakistan, Afghanistan, Iran, Bangladesh)

Well, I hope there is someone here who may be willing to help. Again, I am pretty good at the hard core (sometimes tedious) work, and I’m good at design, but I have no artistic ability what-so-ever, and I suck at map making. It would be cool if there are some graphic people here who could make new units, or develop some pictures for the new techs etc. Please contact me if you have the skills and are interested.

Thanks for your time!

Attachment: map.gif
This has been downloaded 146 time(s).

Last edited by Timeline on 26-08-2001 at 13:04

	26-08-2001 05:08									#2
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Wow, I am surprised no one has responded yet. Maybe there isn’t that much interest for this scenario after all . . .

Doesn't anyone want to help me?

Last edited by Timeline on 26-08-2001 at 05:14

	26-08-2001 05:23									#3
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Well, its kind of hard to design a scenario for a game that hasn't even come out yet
What you've planned looks good though.

In the meantime, I recomend that you have a look at Andrew Livings 'Crises of the New World Order', which IMHO is the best scenario covering the contempary world.

	26-08-2001 03:19									#4
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Edit: What the heck happened to this post?! It was supposed to go on the bottom, but instead ended up here! lol

quote: Well, its kind of hard to design a scenario for a game that hasn't even come out yet What you've planned looks good though. In the meantime, I recomend that you have a look at Andrew Livings 'Crises of the New World Order', which IMHO is the best scenario covering the contempary world.

Yep, I have it! Just downloaded it a few days ago, and it is AWESOME. I think I would aim for something similar except maybe not so story driven. His is a scenario where you have definite objectives (create new world order, target rebels, etc), I want mine to really be where you can decide your own destiny. Although I have heard warnings against it, I really want to create a scenario that has no time limit, no dead line. For me, when a scenario has a time limit, it just becomes a score game or a race to conquer the world. I want to make it so you can play out the scenario with as few restrictions as possible.

As far as it being hard to design a scenario for I game that hasn't come out yet, just look at all the info above. That has taken about 2 months to get together, and that's how far ahead I am because of starting early. There is no such thing as starting too early when it comes to scenarios. I was just hoping to find some people here who may be interested in helping out: laying out the work that will be involved, deciding if they would want to do it, discussing aspects of the project, and so on. I wanted to do all this before the game comes out, when there is gonna be a whole swarm of people who want scenarios, and a ton of designers who are all-of-the-sudden deeply involved in their own projects.

BTW I have a question for you: what do you think it is that makes Crises of the New World Order so great? Is it the all new terrain, unit, and city graphics? Or, is it the design and layout of the scenario? If the latter, then is it good because of the realism, game balance, expanded tech tree, or other?

I know you could say all of the above, but please try to be specific. I know that when it comes to Design, Game Balance, Diversity, I could do a great job. But I think the thing that makes people play scenarios, and *keep* playing them in some cases, is . . . new and good looking graphics. That's the area I need help. At this point, if I were to do this alone, I could make an average scenario but with absolutely no new graphics. With a graphics person working with me, we could add new units and techs, even maybe some fresh city graphics, which would enhance the scenario a lot.

Well, I am all open to comments on what I have said, but go easy on me .

	27-08-2001 03:18									#5
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	27-08-2001 16:21									#6
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You gonna answer my question Case?

	28-08-2001 04:20									#7
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quote: Originally posted by Timeline BTW I have a question for you: what do you think it is that makes Crises of the New World Order so great? Is it the all new terrain, unit, and city graphics? Or, is it the design and layout of the scenario? If the latter, then is it good because of the realism, game balance, expanded tech tree, or other?

What I like is the 'storyline' of the scenario (eg how it's structured) - you really get the feeling that you're the leader of one of the major contempary powers. This is achieved mainly by the way Andrew balenced the military forces and productive capabilities of the civ's.

All the new units are great, and this, along with the tech-tree and the wonders, also greatly adds the scenario's 'crediability'.
I have to confess that I don't like the terrain graphics though - too many dark colours.

	28-08-2001 04:25									#8
	Increase Your PM Length

BTW Timeline, I like the contrast in our signitures - I've got words of wisdom from America's greatest president, and you've got a typical quote from Dubya, who's well on the way to being one of the worst presidents.

	28-08-2001 06:00									#9
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Yes, their’s a major contrast there in our quotes . I try not to worry too much about George ‘Dubya’ (more than is necessary), his term is already almost half over, and most people here admit he won’t be re-elected. The thing to hope for now is that his associates and staff can keep him from causing an International Incident, Civil War, Global Warming, or some other major crises before election season.

A friend of mine from Europe said this over in the Civ III forums:

quote: This looney should be :banned:

Unfortunately there is all too much truth in the last statement

About CNWO, hmm, interesting what you said.

quote: What I like is the 'storyline' of the scenario (eg how it's structured) - you really get the feeling that you're the leader of one of the major contempary powers.

By ‘storyline’ do you mean the events, rebel uprisings, and things like that (i.e. Things that were programmed to happen in the event.txt)? What do you mean by ‘structure’?

quote: This is achieved mainly by the way Andrew balenced the military forces and productive capabilities of the civ's.

quote: All the new units are great, and this, along with the tech-tree and the wonders, also greatly adds the scenario's 'crediability'.

So here you are saying that the units, techs, wonders, made the scenario more realistic, and therefore made you feel more like you were a world leader?

Any suggestions off the top of your head on ways I could make mine better?

	28-08-2001 07:21									#10
	Increase Your PM Length

As I was saying to a friend the other day, the US taxpayers could save a lot of money and get the same quality of government by hiring me as president, and then doing exactly the opposite of what I say

BTW, how's Hillary Clinton working out as a senator? Has she introduced legislation to have Bill Clinton casterated yet?

quote: Originally posted by Timeline By ‘storyline’ do you mean the events, rebel uprisings, and things like that (i.e. Things that were programmed to happen in the event.txt)? What do you mean by ‘structure’?

By 'structure' I was refering to the way that players must balence military adventures with domestic development, While still facing threats from other powers.

quote: Originally posted by Timeline So here you are saying that the units, techs, wonders, made the scenario more realistic, and therefore made you feel more like you were a world leader?

Yes. The scenario is very realistic, and this IMHO is the key to its sucess.

quote: Originally posted by Timeline Any suggestions off the top of your head on ways I could make mine better?

While having little knowledge of what capabilities Civ3 will bring, I'd recomend that the scenario shouldn't be based entirely around war and military developments - these days economic competition is far more important to the sucess of nations then military competition. This might mean a move away from deciding victory in a scenrio by counting the objective points at the end of the scenario (perhaps having the highest GDP/Capita at the end of the scenario...)

Also, this is a very ambitious project for a brand new game - I hope you realise it means that you'll have to design all the new units yourself
(I guess this is a good reason to start planning early)

	28-08-2001 08:10									#11
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I haven’t heard much from Hillary lately. I guess she won’t be in town for the state fair this time around, which is all the better for me. For me, the best politician is the one you hear the least from.

As for you running my country - be my guest! We can swear you in as a US citizen (if you’re not one already) and you can run under the Independent ticket in 2004, you will probably win too! You’ll have my vote. Also, I could use all that data you’ll be getting from CIA briefings for my scenario

quote: this is a very ambitious project for a brand new game - I hope you realise it means that you'll have to design all the new units yourself

Well, there is just no way I am going to get in to graphic unit design, or map making for that matter. That was the point of this whole thread, to find someone who could help me in these areas. If no one will, I will use the default unit graphics, and my poor little scenario won’t have any new unts. Same with the map. If no one’s willing to make a nice world map, then I will be stuck with the default map, which usually isn’t any good.

BTW, I think a lot of people here think Civ 3 is going to be totally different than Civ 2. Guess what? It’s not. I have been following every little bit of info that we have been getting, and intensely discussing it at the forums, and I feel I know this game very well. The developers themselves have called Civ 3 a “conservative sequel”. Well this may be bad for a player looking for something revolutionary, but it is a good thing for scenario designers, as they will not have too much new stuff to learn. Indeed, it has been confirmed by Firaxis that Civ 2 scenarios will be able to be converted to Civ 3.

To anyone reading: If you can make good maps for Civ 2, or if you are good at making unit pics for CTP or CTP 2, then PLEASE contact me as I NEED MAP MAKERS!!! And I need GRAPHIC ARTISTS! - for this project.

Timeline - signing off

	29-08-2001 01:20									#12
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quote: Originally posted by Timeline Indeed, it has been confirmed by Firaxis that Civ 2 scenarios will be able to be converted to Civ 3.

Great!

	29-08-2001 07:19									#13
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I wouldn't underestimate Bush, if I were you. He's not as dumb as he looks, and I suspect that he uses his image to his advantage...

Anyway, when you make this scenario, I think that a unified Arab League would be very much contrary to current political situations. I don't expect to see Iraq and Saudi Arabia seeing eye-to-eye frequently: the Arab world has generally been split between traditionalist states (usually pro-Western and with monarchies) and reforming states (usually anti-Western and with republics). Saudi Arabia, Kuwait, and UAE are the former: Iraq, Syria, and Libya are the latter.

Also, despite the wishes of so many Afrocentrists, the idea of sub-Saharan Africa united in purpose is also counterfactual. There are so many petty squabbles between those countries that you may want to set up a "normal" sub-Saharan government, but have a bunch of barbarians running about, making it very difficult to hold on to power.

	29-08-2001 12:54									#14
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I've been thinkking that you may want to include a category for 'rouge' states (eg North Korea, Libya, Zimbabwe, Iraq) While these countries generally don't see eye to eye on political matters, there is a great deal of military co-operation between them.

	29-08-2001 15:58									#15
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There was an idea about the rouge stated going on inthe old thread but it seems that it was ditched in the last map

I still like that ide, these points (cities) should be either barbarrians, or a very aggressive civ, that has everyone else as an enemy.

	30-08-2001 01:26									#16
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Ah, the rogue nations again. I still think that it's a good idea and I think Case's point about them sharing military tech is valid.

Timeline- Sorry for the absence. I am on vacation. I like the maps you've put together. I am going to try and look at the downloads on the other forums more carefully.

A couple of questions. Why is Ecuador shaded like the Caribean countries on your map? It should be with the Andean Pact (cause you listed it as such).

Also since I've been looking at the map the more ridiculous it seems that Latin America is split up. I guess a division from Columbia down would be OK. They're all sort of in the same position and this would give them more global bargaining power. Then you'd jsut have two Latin American civs in that scenario. A Mexican dominated Caribean civ and a Brazil/Argentina dominated South American one.

I have no idea about why people keep playing scenarios. I think that it has to do with all the influences that you mentioned (graphics, gameplay, realism etc.)

What about starting the other thred back up. It was still getting a lot of attention and now someone has even started another rival scanrio thread. At least people would read it there. I'd be a regular contributor again... I don't know how many people come into this area of Apolyton regularly....

Good work so far. I'll post more later.