14-02-2001 09:43									#1
	fortification bonus within walls or fortress Avatar Enlargement: We've got the solution

The coastal fortress thread brings to mind a question I've had forever: am I right in thinking that there's no added bonus for fortifying a unit when it's within city walls, whereas the fortification bonus DOES come into play within a coastal fortress? Thus, the fortified unit has triple strength, in total, either way. I haven't built enough SAMs to have figured out whether the bonus would apply there. Can anybody tell me?

	21-02-2001 10:28									#2
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What, nobody's ever noticed this? Or, OTOH, maybe it's too obvious to comment on?

	21-02-2001 13:22									#3
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see pages 56 and 106 "city defenses" of the manual.

	21-02-2001 18:56									#4
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If I remember well, only the best of fortify/fortress/city walls applies.

	21-02-2001 19:16									#5
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The fortify can never hurt you at the end of your turn, since you can always click on to move the next turn. And if you play 2x production in MP the fortification will take effect immediately unlike the normal next turn.
While some people may now think that they need not fortify while behind city walls since the fortify bonus isn't used, think again. Diplo takes down wall, units = sitting ducks.

RAH

	21-02-2001 19:45									#6
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The City Walls count only against land attacks, the Coastal Fortress only against sea attacks and the SAM Missile Battery only against air attacks.

- Rib -

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	21-02-2001 20:46									#7
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rah,

quote: The fortify can never hurt you at the end of your turn, since you can always click on to move the next turn.

Do you want to say that you know any example where fortifying hurts (or causes disavantage in other words)?

quote: And if you play 2x production in MP the fortification will take effect immediately unlike the normal next turn.

???

• I suppose I don't need to be fortified within MY OWN turn.
  
• In SP, a unit takes the benefit of fortifying on following enemy's turn.
  

{combat system}
{walls}{fortress}{coastal fortress}{SAM}{fortify}
{}{SlowThinker}{end2}

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This is a post with keywords. See a thread The Great Library: a hierarchical structure" thread.
[This message has been edited by SlowThinker (edited April 15, 2001).]

	21-02-2001 21:34									#8
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My point is that I think fortification bonus DOES occur with regard to coastal fortress protecting against sea attacks. Has anyone else come to this conclusion?

	22-02-2001 00:06									#9
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debeest,

'Though I haven't run a thorough test, I think that you and SlowThinker are correct:

v.s. land units you get the best of: fortified unit, fortress, or city walls - only one of them.

v.s. sea units you get fortified unit and coastal fortress (neither fortresses nor city walls help).

v.s. air units you get fortified unit and SAM missle battery (neither fortresses nor city walls help).

Like rah pointed out, you might still want to fortify in walled cities in case of a sea/air attack or in case the walls are suddenly sabotaged.

	22-02-2001 00:45									#10
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IIRC - Fortresses work against naval bombardment

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	22-02-2001 01:13									#11
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Yes, they do, but I'm talking here about coastal fortresses in cities. It seems odd, if true, that city walls negate fortification bonus, while coastal fortress and SAM do not.

	22-02-2001 07:23									#12
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Not necessarily odd, if U think about what they represent (& if U'v ever had the joy of digging every nite & being shot at)...
City walls & fortresses do the same thing as do the fox holes & piled-up dirt... only alot better; protect from direct land fire from any direction.

Coastal forts provide protection from (& return fire to) the sea only.

SAM is nothing more than counter-firing batteries of missles that "defend" by attacking. So in the latter 2 cases, digging in still gives land units a defensive increase against damage.

These guys KNEW what they were doing! Geniuses to the max.

	28-02-2001 04:31									#13
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By the way, Edward, I think you do combine the bonuses if you're fortified within a fortress. 2x for the fortress, times 1.5x for being fortified, so that again, you get 3x bonus. Anyone disagree?

	28-02-2001 04:57									#14
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I'm pretty sure they combine, but I also think that's done additively, not multiplicatively. So +100% for the fortress and +50% for being fortified gives +150%, ie x 2.5. AFAIK the only bonus that's multiplicative is the veteran bonus.

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	28-02-2001 05:35									#15
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I'm pretty sure ALL attack/defense strength bonuses are multiplicative: veteran, terrain, fortification, city defenses, scrambling fighter, etc. -- and fortification behind city walls is the only one where one bonus renders another bonus irrelevant. I know this forum has extensively addressed the questions of combat. What do the experts think? (Based on your posted accomplishments, Ribannah, I'd certainly have to consider you one of them.)

	28-02-2001 21:22									#16
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All bonuses are multiplicative, none are added.

From tests I've run, you only get one fortify type bonus: The highest of X1.5 for unit fortifying, X2 for a fortress or X3 for city walls. There is no advantage to fortifying a unit in a fortress.

	01-03-2001 10:12									#17
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A fortified unit in a fortress or city uses that bonus against bombers and howitzers (which ignore the walls). Always fortify. It's a good habit with no downside.