29-08-2001 16:39									#31
	Support Apolyton, buy Call to Power 2

Well Adm. Naismith, I could not blame you for downloading warez to see what the game is like before you buy...

	29-08-2001 18:06									#32
	Support Apolyton, buy Civilization: The Boardgame

I believe I'm correct in saying that the EU laws apply and you can demand a full refund for a faulty software product (you say its faulty i.e. it crashes after half an hour playing, no proof required, you get your money back). Unfortunately if that awareness has not spread to Italian shops then someone somewhere needs to bring a test case against a store to prove it then ensure it is upheld in future. Not a job for the average buyer without the backing of a consumer organisation to provide the legal support.

	29-08-2001 19:19									#33
	Help yourself to an AD-FREE life

yeap, it's true, just a got a confirmation from firaxis....

	29-08-2001 20:28									#34
	Support Apolyton buy from Amazon

The consumer liscensing laws in America are not as strict as they are in the EU, but the stores that people often buy these kinds of games from (Best buy, Electronics Boutique come to mind) have pretty good waranties about returning "defective" games... I just recently returned a copy of Black and White to best buy b/c it had hardware compatibilty issues.

My opinion on the demo debacle (and you can quote me on that ) is that if they feel they need the time that they would have to spend making a good demo to make the game better, fine. I'm buying the game anyway

	29-08-2001 20:48									#35
	Enter the AD-FREE zone

The hard-core civ fan willl buy it, irregardless...

However, a demo is very nice for someone who may have never tried the game in the first place. I went out and got one of my favorite games, 'Pharaoh', because of the demo. Would I have bought the game if I hadn't played the demo??? - doubtful...

And playing SMAC on a demo was nice to get the feel of the game, though I went on more of the fan comments than playing the demo when I bought the game.

Of course enough people have heard of Civ, so a name goes a long way. Firaxis is counting on that fact - that and the pub in Time.

	30-08-2001 02:00									#36
	Increase the size of your Attachments

I probably wouldn't have downloaded a demo anyway. They are getting ridiculous. The last one I tried to get was over 100MB and the server was so sluggish I just gave up. By the time the Civ3 demo finished downloading the game would be out already...

	30-08-2001 03:14									#37
	Increase the size of your Attachments

Even in the U.S. its hard to return a game to most places if there are hardware conflicts or if the game is just no good. I like demos for the following reasons.

They allow us to try a product before we buy it. This is important because we are paying $50 for a game that we don't know if we like or even if it will work on our system.

They show that a company has faith in their product and is not just using its name/publicity to con us out of $50.

The last game that I bought without a demo was call to power and that was a big mistake. The only way that I will risk buying a game without a demo again is if it recieves rave reviews from nearly all of the gaming sites and it doesn't recieve many complaints from fans on forums like this one.

	30-08-2001 03:41									#38
	Browse Apolyton AD-FREE

quote: Originally posted by Grumbold I believe I'm correct in saying that the EU laws apply and you can demand a full refund for a faulty software product (you say its faulty i.e. it crashes after half an hour playing, no proof required, you get your money back). Unfortunately if that awareness has not spread to Italian shops then someone somewhere needs to bring a test case against a store to prove it then ensure it is upheld in future. Not a job for the average buyer without the backing of a consumer organisation to provide the legal support.

It's not a try to fit some comparate law system lesson , but... EU laws usually derive from a patwork of best law and legal practice over the european states. Then every parlament must (should?) make a national law to make EU laws valid into the country (my apologize to any professional if I'm writing wrong legal info, please correct me).

The legal system in Italy AFAIK haven't managed to introduce in Italy what you mention. So current rules are: prove the product defective for everyone (not doing what promisen in written words) and not for your system limit, and you can have your money back.

Consumer organization can help, but not so much (specially for a product as a game) and you must add that in Great Britain a court decision make a relevant "first time": get a succes and you are on the right way to have a "de facto" law extension.

In Italy a court decision only is applicable for that case, so next time any lawyer can read the "first time" sentence but never consider it as relevant for the new case.

Provost, it seems the Game producers never learn!

	30-08-2001 04:51									#39
	Support Apolyton, buy Civilization: The Boardgame

I'm sorry, and I'll try to express myself without being expressively rude. But trust me, I'm really pissed.

Why, but WHY shouldn't be a demo???
I bought SMAC because I played it's demo! I practiced on SMAC's demo before buying the game because I liked it!!!

quote: Originally posted by Adm.Naismith So we now know (...) that Firaxis is (chose yours): a) under so great pressure it can't make a workable demo of the game b) afraid of the avalanche of bug/balancing issue the demo players can send back to it c) ready to milk as much money they can before someone realize that Civ III is not the game our community is waiting for d) lightened by the Angel of the game makers, who predict to Firaxis all is so good heaven itself will be proud to buy the Limited Edition ("and could they preset the game to Deity level, please?")

a), b) and c)

quote: Originally posted by Adm.Naismith Definitely ignorance is a virtue: if I never discovered Apolyton, nor have access to Internet, nor read any (good) game magazine, when I'd see the game on the shelves I'd buy it with joy and happiness (at least for a while ). Now I'll barely touch the game with a stick until proven good! Not because I'm sure it will be bad, but simply because I haven't a single trusted hint it will be good enough out of the box!

Yes! I agree!
Do a pre-release demo! Do an after-release demo! Who cares?!? Just give us a demo! Why is it so hard to impose a 100 turn limit demo so in a sudden?!? Was Brian or Tim or someone else the only person to impose that limit?!?

Did you know that I searched (a lot of) the net for a SMAC-X demo, just to know if the expansion was worth it! And, despite the only two new races, I think it was worth it!

Damn. :banned:

P.S.- Did the spell checking. Lost more than five minutes with Naismith's quotes.

	30-08-2001 04:57									#40
	Support Apolyton or Terrorists Win

EB has a 10 day return policy, I've returned many a game to them recently. But, I believe there is also a disclamer that allows them to tell you to go to hell if they don't feel like giving you your money back.

	30-08-2001 05:39									#41
	Support Apolyton buy from Amazon

Well first time in the news for me but wish it wasn't this
Maybe it's because all the screenshots are mock-ups and the game will just be a black and white screen saying YOU'VE WON ON DEITY!!

Or maybe they're just holding back to build up our anticipation.

Or maybe the kevlar anti-petrol-bomb armour hasn't been installed yet.

Or maybe they enjoy basking in knowing something that just 50 people in the world know??

	30-08-2001 06:21									#42
	Get a bigger avatar today!

I don't think I need a demo to decide whether or not to buy Civ3. Well, actually, I pre-ordered the Limited Edition through Chips 'n' Bits (The will is strong but the flesh has a credit card) so I'm sure I don't need a demo. Sometimes demos help me decide if I don't know anything about the game but in this case I know Sid Meier's products very well so I don't need a demo to make up my mind. I got the demo of Doom because I didn't have enough money for the full version (I was a student then and later I did buy the full version). I downloaded the demo for Pharoah but was disappointed because I couldn't save. I bought the full version of the game in spite of the demo and I'm still playing it almost every day.
Where am I going with this? To get an idea of whether a game is good or not I usually check out fan sites and forums to get people's opinions. I check out epinions.com and reviews by gaming sites. By doing this I usually don't order any duds.
Some people are arguing for a demo so they can complete mods in time for the game release. There's lots of time for mods after the game is released. I'm not going to try a mod until after I've played the original game for a while.

	30-08-2001 07:20									#43
	Suffering from ads?

I've played all of Sid's past games, and they have all been winners with me.

And from the sounds of it, I will be buying CivIII.

But there are just two things that bother me:

1) The in-house beta testing;

2) And the deadline for the game's release.

That means, upon the game's release, there will be more bugs/play issues than should be warranted, especially considering its complexity.

I hope I'm wrong and everything goes smooth, but deadlines are deadlines. . .

BTW, while we're on the subject: Does anyone know of any game that went on to become a winner, even though it had no demo?

I usually never buy a game until I have played the demo.

Just wondering. Even CTP put out a demo. . .

Last edited by Leonidas on 30-08-2001 at 07:26

	30-08-2001 08:30									#44
	Support Apolyton, buy Alpha Centauri

quote: Originally posted by Leonidas BTW, while we're on the subject: Does anyone know of any game that went on to become a winner, even though it had no demo?

The Sims, Total Anhilation, and Baldur's gate to name a few. I could name a million more if you are just talking about pre-release demos.

	30-08-2001 09:56									#45
	Enter the AD-FREE zone

i barely ever play a demo of a game before i buy it, so i don't really care that civ 3 is not having a demo. I'm buying it either way. I own ever civ series game so far and i'm not leaving this one out. Even if it is crappy it's easy to return it. I've never had trouble returning a game in the past and i don't think i'll have trouble now. however i highly doubt i'll have to return the game. i have faith that it's going to be a good game anyway. They've all been so far.



And Sid and the rest of the design team have their reputations to worry about. they just can't make a crummy game. so what are you all stressing about

	30-08-2001 13:06									#46
	Support Apolyton, buy Civilization: The Boardgame

quote: Originally posted by Zealot P.S.- Did the spell checking. Lost more than five minutes with Naismith's quotes.

Oooops! You know, I'm using the light version of the forum form, so spell checking isn't an available option.
And I'm been very sick, too

Feel free to point out my english mistakes, anyone. This forum is the best english course I can take for free

	30-08-2001 15:05									#47
	Tired of ads?

quote: Originally posted by Leonidas BTW, while we're on the subject: Does anyone know of any game that went on to become a winner, even though it had no demo?

Correct me if I'm wrong, but there was no pre-release demo for Civ2 either. At least I never saw one back in '96 or when ever it came out . Some demos for it were released later though, at least for Mac...

	30-08-2001 17:31									#48
	Support Apolyton, buy Civilization 2

Man, I wish there was a pre release demo. then we could all stop griping about the last iota of info they release to us and actually do some playing.

BTW, did somebocy say they found a demo for the AC add on? can they tell me where to find it? I need something to take my mind off waiting another 2 months for civ3.

I know in my heart it will be a great game, when I listen to it. but attending these forums gives me pessimism by osmosis

	30-08-2001 17:48									#49
	Remove this text

quote: Originally posted by Father Beast BTW, did somebocy say they found a demo for the AC add on? can they tell me where to find it? I need something to take my mind off waiting another 2 months for civ3.

Sure! Go to official Alpha Centauri site, chose download area and there you are! (BTW, 23MB of download size ).

quote: I know in my heart it will be a great game, when I listen to it. but attending these forums gives me pessimism by osmosis

Eh, eh. No, you are chilling down all the hot hype with a right dose of realism.

I'm not in business "against" Firaxis: I'm looking for a great game in change of my money, and I prefer a wonderful Civ III game worth the effort, than my money firmly in my pocket and nothing new to play on my PC

	30-08-2001 19:57									#50
	Support Apolyton, pre-order Civilization IV

I personally never wanted a Demo, I do not feel they add anything to the game as a hole. The only advantage is for people who are not sure of they want to get it. But in general especially for a game of this type I feel a demo would add nothing. :banned:

	31-08-2001 01:24									#51
	Remove this text

quote: Apparently I am the only person who feels this way, but I don't want there to be a demo. It'll just ruin the moment when they game is released and you will finally be able to play it, Instead, you will have already been playing a watered down version, and probably have gotten bored of it because of the lack of features and options in the demo, and you wouldn't be very excited about the game anymore. Not to mention that demos are usually completely horrible and just give a bad impression of a game, especially with strategy games, where it is really difficult to limit the game and still have it being fun.

L O L
You know what, you are just afraid that you dont like the demo. But then why should you like the game? And you want to like the game alas you dont want there to be a demo.


If a game is fun, a demo will NOT drain feelings from the real game.
I played demo of Jagged Alliance 2 and it ROCKED!! And then when I grabbed the game it ROCKED too!
Bad Demo = Bad Game (most of the time).
If Civ3 Demo is bad I wont be buying Civ3. And thats exactly why they dont do a demo. This shows me that they have no trust in their own game to be a real true sequel to Civ2.
Or of course they are just lazy.

I will not buy Civ3 unless I have seen a demo of it. Buying something without a review of oneself has already taken a lot of money from me for games that ended up on my shelf.

But if you WILL WANT to like it (lol) then go on and say that you dont want a demo.

ata

	31-08-2001 01:58									#52
	Got spare money?

Uhm, no.

I am not afraid that I won't like the game. As I have already said, it will ruin the experience of playing it for the first time, and depending on the quality of the demo, I may not be as excited about the game as I otherwise would be.

If I don't like the game when I get it, I'll return it like I do with the majority of ****y games that I buy. (though I sometimes foolishly keep it, hoping for a patch)

	31-08-2001 07:33									#53
	Help yourself to an AD-FREE life

quote: Originally posted by yin26 Once again, the general public is being shut-out by this decision [snip]

:cough:

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	31-08-2001 19:59									#54
	Support Apolyton buy from Amazon

quote: Originally posted by vonManstein "Thus, I am off the boards indefinitely. " yin26

"indefinitely" doesn't mean "forever" AFAIK

Proabably just "for a few hours": more a drop down on daily post than an exile

"I can stop to smoke everytime I want: I had already stopped to smoke seven times today"

	01-09-2001 11:08									#55
	The danger of a demo... Inflate your Upload Space

The danger of a demo to developers is that it can be so good in itself that some won't feel the need to go out and buy the game since they can get that intial playing curiousity out of their system by playing the demo. And sometimes demos can put people off games.

How many got put off by the AC demo? I did intially but then changed my mind and decided the game was great. But it can be a dicey thing for developers.

Firaxis want us to pay and don't want to risk losing any money from a demo that will either be too good or will disappoint.

	05-09-2001 02:33									#56
	Support Apolyton or Terrorists Win

If the game is something new then I would expect to see a demo. (Like SMAC)

If the game is continuing a series then I am not surprised if there isn't one. Also, given their tight timeline, I would rather they work on the game than produce a demo. Within that time frame, I don't think they have time for the feedback a demo would generate right now.

And we all know it would generate a LOT of feedback!

	05-09-2001 12:26									#57
	Tired of ads?

quote: Originally posted by Adm.Naismith It's not a try to fit some comparate law system lesson , but... EU laws usually derive from a patwork of best law and legal practice over the european states. Then every parlament must (should?) make a national law to make EU laws valid into the country (my apologize to any professional if I'm writing wrong legal info, please correct me). The legal system in Italy AFAIK haven't managed to introduce in Italy what you mention. So current rules are: prove the product defective for everyone (not doing what promisen in written words) and not for your system limit, and you can have your money back. Consumer organization can help, but not so much (specially for a product as a game) and you must add that in Great Britain a court decision make a relevant "first time": get a succes and you are on the right way to have a "de facto" law extension. In Italy a court decision only is applicable for that case, so next time any lawyer can read the "first time" sentence but never consider it as relevant for the new case. Provost, it seems the Game producers never learn!

That's called shrinkwrap contract. By opening a box you accept a license and they gotta give you say 7 days to return if you are not happy with the terms of license contained inside.
EU law has been harmonized in the aspects of so called 'distance sales' so you might be better protected ordering through post and/or internet. I do not quite remember the refund period but it's either 7 or 30 days. In any case, it does not apply to CDs and software. Not sure about the games.
You do understand that a game is not a fridge or TV and that using it for 7 days is damn enough to get sick of 95 % of them. If there were no exclusion mentioned above, we would have a playtest heaven and gaming companies could just as well shut down.
Now what Admiral describes is a scenario of general breach of contract (buggy mess) so the question is the one of fact (is it really unfit for purpose and not as described - again 95% of the games really have hot air all over their back sides of the box) and the one of plausability (generally, you have no incentive to go to court in this case - too expensive and lengthy for 40 USD thingie) so a consumer arbitration body (if set up) is the only real recourse. Plus your purchasing power and a decision never to buy again from the bastards .


I have a question of my own - would C&B deliver limited edtion to an European addy?

	05-09-2001 18:07									#58
	Support Apolyton, buy Galactic Civilizations

Great explanation LaRusso! Thanks

	05-09-2001 18:23									#59
	Support Apolyton, buy GURPS/ Alpha Centauri

quote: Originally posted by LaRusso I have a question of my own - would C&B deliver limited edtion to an European addy?

Chips&Bits delivers world-wide. I know yin had ordered from them from Korea(and it was delivered too! )

	05-09-2001 19:43									#60
	Support Apolyton

I have ordered close to 20 games to be delivered here in Korea and had NO problems! I highly recommend buying from them internationally (though some countries like the UK actually hold the game and charge you a tax or something, but Korea doesn't!).

Anyway, also remember: Click through the link here at Poly so a percentage goes to this site.