28-08-2001 03:22									#1
	It's official, No Civ3 Demo Support Apolyton, buy Civilization: The Boardgame

Some of you may have quessed already and I might even have missed a thread on this already but Kelley Gilmore has informed me tere will be no civ3 demo so bad news for anyone wishing for some scenario editing tools

There won't be a demo for Civ III.

Thanks for checking.

Kelley

	28-08-2001 03:31									#2
	Re: It's official, No Civ3 Demo Inflate your Upload Space

What thread? A link, please.

	28-08-2001 03:51									#3
	Browse Apolyton AD-FREE

Apparently I am the only person who feels this way, but I don't want there to be a demo. It'll just ruin the moment when they game is released and you will finally be able to play it, Instead, you will have already been playing a watered down version, and probably have gotten bored of it because of the lack of features and options in the demo, and you wouldn't be very excited about the game anymore.

Not to mention that demos are usually completely horrible and just give a bad impression of a game, especially with strategy games, where it is really difficult to limit the game and still have it being fun.

	28-08-2001 04:08									#4
	Full PM-box? Change here!

quote: Apparently I am the only person who feels this way, but I don't want there to be a demo.

You're diffently not the only one. Even there was a free demo to download I wouldnt' download it. Like you said it takes away from the "real game" when you first play it. I say no to a demo (hey look it rhymes).

	28-08-2001 07:15									#5
	Support Apolyton buy from Amazon

umm no I won't give you a link to my email a/c.

	28-08-2001 07:51									#6
	Help yourself to an AD-FREE life

A copy would be sufficient.

	28-08-2001 08:12									#7
	Tired of ads?

Intolerable!

quote: Originally posted by Osweld Not to mention that demos are usually completely horrible and just give a bad impression of a game, especially with strategy games, where it is really difficult to limit the game and still have it being fun.

I am not sure what kind of demos you have played, but that's not what my experience is. The SMAC demo was very complete, for example.

	28-08-2001 08:51									#8
	Suffering from ads?

I'm getting the game no matter what so why would I want a demo?

It would be interesting if there was some limited release demo like the Civ2 demo which would lead to me being one of the few people with a copy though.

	28-08-2001 09:46									#9
	Support Apolyton, buy Alpha Centauri

Why make a demo of what is the most anticipated TBS game of the year(s). Demo's are for games you need to build a pre-release buzz for. Civ3 has been buzzing for a few years now.

	28-08-2001 11:00									#10
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Brian Reynolds on the SMAC demo:

quote: Then, it was time to release our demo. We had originally thought of the demo entirely as a marketing tool, but as soon as we released it we realized that it made perfect sense as part of our process: Here was a fairly polished, almost-final version of our game in the hands of the public, and as soon as the thing was out we started getting all sorts of feedback from it. Since the release version of Alpha Centauri was still in final testing, and our actual ship date was more than a month away, we had time to incorporate many suggestions from e-mail and Internet newsgroups into the retail version - much to the game's benefit. Thanks to the demo release, we could make improvements to the game's interface, add a couple of new features, and fix a few glitches found by demo users that had somehow slipped through our testing process. Most significantly, the design of the game itself was still "in play" during the demo process - we could improve some rules, fine-tune the game balance, and improve the AI, all based on feedback we got from the Internet. Even though we hadn't planned it that way, the demo release really proved to be a perfect addition to our design repertoire.

Once again, the general public is being shut-out by this decision not to release a demo as was done with great success with SMAC. Of course, if Civ 3 proves to have not needed info on "glitches found by demo users that had somehow slipped through," then fine.

Murphy's Law and a hell of a lot of experience, however, should be screaming otherwise.

	28-08-2001 11:07									#11
	Suffering from ads?

ok, Firaxis, the experiment has worked!!

"No Civ3 Demo" is one of the key phrases that awakens the Yin26 Beast! Everyone should know that from now on so that this doesnt happen again.....

	28-08-2001 11:20									#12
	Support Apolyton, buy Civilization: The Boardgame

That's cold Mark, very COLD! When you throw a dog a bone, it's not supposed to be on a string so you can pull it back at the last second!

	28-08-2001 12:31									#13
	Lose 30 kilos (of popups)

quote: Originally posted by MarkG ok, Firaxis, the experiment has worked!! "No Civ3 Demo" is one of the key phrases that awakens the Yin26 Beast! Everyone should know that from now on so that this doesnt happen again.....

Two options:
1) Darknight is kidding, demo will be out: that's not very funny but's OK.

2) Darknight is correct, game will not have a demo and you are making this time less than funny joke on Yin26 only replying to Swissy and others the positive feedback of demo as once admitted by Brian himself.

Are you really the same MarkG who 21-8-2001 wrote:

quote: anyway, first of all, there WILL be a demo. firaxis always made demos for their games, and infogrames seems to be doing the same(check their site). second, if the demo is done like smac, it will be very good for civ3. if you consider that the demo was out on december 25 and the game was released on february 9(that's more than 2 months between the two dates), guess how you can call the smac demo....

Naaah, unbelievable: someone must have stolen administrator password.

	28-08-2001 12:41									#14
	Support Apolyton buy from Amazon

1) my post above in this thread was a joke
2) the other post you quoted is pure speculation on my part. i think it's clear i was just making an argument, i wasnt quoting any info from firaxis or infogrames or from a preview

	28-08-2001 15:30									#15
	Support Apolyton, buy Galactic Civilizations

quote: Originally posted by MarkG 2) the other post you quoted is pure speculation on my part. i think it's clear i was just making an argument, i wasnt quoting any info from firaxis or infogrames or from a preview

Sorry MarkG, I know the quoted part is not an info from Firaxis; my point is you showed a good appreciation for a demo out before the game goes to the shop.

Just in case Darkknight wasn't kidding (and you know about it) I was surprised by your uninteresting shooting on Yin26 (that wasn't trolling Firaxis at all , just quoting a previous info to explain good use of a demo), and not about the missing demo itself.

So would anyone please care to confirm or deny the info about demo?

Thank you in advance to anyone will help a dumb person as I am

	28-08-2001 15:43									#16
	Got spare money?

quote: Originally posted by Adm.Naismith I was surprised by your uninteresting shooting on Yin26 (that wasn't trolling Firaxis at all , just quoting a previous info to explain good use of a demo), and not about the missing demo itself.

that was because we dont have a confirmation on this. someone else posted that it would be out after the release

	29-08-2001 02:50									#17
	Increase Your PM Length

Jesus! Maybe I should just give you a link to my email a/c. That was practically the whole message but if you want more:

Hi Shane.

There won't be a demo for Civ III.

Thanks for checking.

Kelley

Kelley Gilmore
Communications Manager
Firaxis Games
410-891-3001 x131
kgilmore@firaxis.com

-----Original Message-----
From: Shane Christopher [mailto:gondhi_dm@hotmail.com]
Sent: Tuesday, August 21, 2001 10:55 PM
To: askthecivteam@firaxis.com; kgilmore@firaxis.com
Subject: Civ3 Demo and Scenario editors.


Hi Kelley and ATCT,

The SMAC demo was released 2 months before SMAC released, and it is now 2 months before civ3 releases according to Amazon and infrogames. Will there be a demo within the next week or two and if so will it include the scenario/map editors so we can start making our own scenarios for when the game releases?
Thanks any information is greatly appreciated.

Shane.

BTW People from the Apolyton community came up with these questions not me



OK is that enough? I sent her a mail after reading a thread about the possibility of there being scen. editors packed with the demo.
And also Mark you may take the credit for the 2 months bit

	29-08-2001 03:02									#18
	Support Apolyton, buy Civilization: The Boardgame

LOL DarkKnight

I, for one, understood the meaning of your first entry on this thread. I guess some people just want it spelled out for them!

	29-08-2001 03:22									#19
	Get a bigger avatar today!

quote: Originally posted by Osweld Apparently I am the only person who feels this way, but I don't want there to be a demo. It'll just ruin the moment when they game is released and you will finally be able to play it, Instead, you will have already been playing a watered down version, and probably have gotten bored of it because of the lack of features and options in the demo, and you wouldn't be very excited about the game anymore. Not to mention that demos are usually completely horrible and just give a bad impression of a game, especially with strategy games, where it is really difficult to limit the game and still have it being fun.

I agree with you, I don't wanna play it until its the final full version.

	29-08-2001 03:43									#20
	no demo = no good Support Apolyton

I didn't plan on d/l'ing the demo if there was going to be one released. The reason is because I already knew I would buy the game ahead of time. But, it does worry me that the company is not confident enough with their game in order to produce a demo. I have found numerous times that the games without demos usually don't have them because the games are buggy or just plan junk. While I don't beleive this game will be junk by any means, I do not rule out the possibliity that this game is not being given a demo because of known time restraints by infogrames, and the forsight to predict problems that may arrise, i.e. bugs, once this game hits the public. While the demo would not have disuaded me from buying the game, the decision to not release a demo for this game will make me wait for player feedback, and see if I should wait for a patch before buying. Lack of a demo will result in more bugs, and less feature tweaking. And, it also shows infograms lack of confidence in Firaxis' ability to produce a stupendious game given the beurocratic b.s. and time constraints given unto Firaxis by infograms.

	29-08-2001 03:56									#21
	Support Apolyton, pre-order Civilization IV

hmm thats really disapoining, i was atleast looking forward to editing tools being available..

	29-08-2001 04:09									#22
	Support Apolyton, buy Civilization 2

firaxis-shmuraxis.

if i didn't already order civ3, and if i wasn't so lazy, and if i didn't want the game, and if it made a difference, i would not buy civ3.

	29-08-2001 04:23									#23
	Avatar Enlargement: We've got the solution

Nemo: I think you may be right. Time constraints/deadline by Infogames is probably the reason why there's no demo, no 800x600 resolution, and public beta testing.

Like you I think I'll wait and see what our fellow civers think of the game.

But darn it all, you just know that I 'll wind up buying the game

	29-08-2001 04:36									#24
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I don't feel any need for a demo. Why would I want a buggy program that's only a torn up version of the full game? if you're desperate, you can try and find a leaked beta version. I would rather have them finish their game earlier than have a cheap-ass piece of shareware created in 20 minutes by a firaxis intern.

Give me a floggin break

	29-08-2001 04:40									#25
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quote: But darn it all, you just know that I 'll wind up buying the game

Me too. Aren't we sad addicts

	29-08-2001 09:38									#26
	Avatar Enlargement: We've got the solution

quote: Originally posted by isaac brock I don't feel any need for a demo. Why would I want a buggy program that's only a torn up version of the full game? if you're desperate, you can try and find a leaked beta version. I would rather have them finish their game earlier than have a cheap-ass piece of shareware created in 20 minutes by a firaxis intern. Give me a floggin break

Could it be that someone on the board will be happy still if Firaxis throw him junk and litter, just because they came from Firaxis?

Drug addicted wants drug so heavily, no matter of the quality of the dose they take For God sake, is the game community lowered to the same level of lacking of perspective and self respect?

A demo is a two-way communication: the company wants you know how good is the new game (with some disclaimer about last minute disovered bug and tweak), while the customer can have a more realistic taste of how the game survived into the long run between the design dream and the final source code compilation and linking (aka the executable you lastly play).

Is crap to make a demo out of nothing from a Firaxis intern: that can only be an early, alpha conceptual demo used to show how things can work while in first stage of game development. A demo as SMAC demo was, is the last available working build of the game with some limit forced into the code (e.g. limited number of turns and limited tech tree available) and with some bell&whistle disabled (e.g. no presentation graphics, cut scene movie) to have a reduced download time and keep room for last nice touch.

So we now know (Darkknight, sorry if I took your post with some reserve, it has been a side effect of MarkG joking about the "bone" throwed at Yin" that make me feel it was a false) that Firaxis is (chose yours):

a) under so great pressure it can't make a workable demo of the game
b) afraid of the avalance of bug/balancing issue the demo players can send back to it
c) ready to milk as much money they can before someone realize that Civ III is not the game our community is waiting for
d) lightened by the Angel of the game makers, who predict to Firaxis all is so good heaven itself will be proud to buy the Limited Edition ("and could they preset the game to Deity level, please?")

Definitelly ignorance is a virtue: if I never discovered Apolyton, nor have access to Internet, nor read any (good) game magazine, when I'd see the game on the shelves I'd buy it with joy and happines (at least for a while ).

Now I'll barely touch the game with a stick until proven good!
Not because I'm sure it will be bad, but simply because I haven't a single trusted hint it will be good enough out of the box!

Sorry Isaac, why don't you give us a break?

Nemo, Leonidas, try to resist! There are drugs to aid you against unnecessary urge, and a visit to the nearest temple/church can help too!
Lovely bad girls can make interesting alternative play with you, AFAIK, as enjoyable as a Civ game

	29-08-2001 12:50									#27
	Support Apolyton buy from Amazon

Oh well, look on the bright side... By the time the game is actually released in countries other than America, it looks like 3 months will have passed...

By that time, not only will you know all Civ 3's strenghts and weaknesses (from the Americans playing experience), but any bugs found will also be patched...

*mutters something about **** release dates*

	29-08-2001 12:58									#28
	Support Apolyton

I have found lack of a demo a concerning statistic...companies which are proud of their games tend to have no qualms about releasing a demo. This sounds most perculiar to me. I don't buy games without playing a demo first. Would you buy a pair of shoes without trying them on. And if they are shafting the rest of the world over the release dates, then warez it is!

	29-08-2001 15:49									#29
	Support Apolyton buy from Amazon

Looks like there'll be plenty of feedback before I can get a UK copy. Even so, I'll just treat the released copy as a demo version if I have to. Buy it, play it and take it straight back to the shop in the unlikely event that it proves completely unsatisfactory. That's the nice thing about EU consumer laws!

A pre-release demo is more to Firaxis' benefit than ours in that it essentially becomes an informal open public beta. It is only valuable if they want to learn what we think of their product in time to do something about it. With the current determination to meet the October deadline that isn't going to happen.

	29-08-2001 16:28									#30
	Support Apolyton, buy Civilization 2

quote: Originally posted by Grumbold Looks like there'll be plenty of feedback before I can get a UK copy. Even so, I'll just treat the released copy as a demo version if I have to. Buy it, play it and take it straight back to the shop in the unlikely event that it proves completely unsatisfactory. That's the nice thing about EU consumer laws!

Grumbold, that's a point that most of others probably don't know: here in Italy we can't hope, for whatever reason to have money back if anything is wrong with a game!

Only because of an unreadable CD can let you change it with another copy of the same, and sometime also that isn't enough!

We are in EU too, but consumer law aren't equal in every country. AFAIK Great Britain have one of the greatest customer protection in Europe.

So, when someone don't understand why I don't take lighty to bet 130,000 LIT (more or less 60$, the price for top catalog games) on a game I can't try with a demo, nor change if doesn't work for major bug or HW incompatibility issue... please consider this.