28-08-2001 07:06									#1
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Which of the civs included in Civ III is the most deserving?

I would say the Romans... I could explain, but it wouldn't be worth the extra effort... it's self explanatory

	28-08-2001 08:42									#2
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Why, the English of course

	28-08-2001 12:07									#3
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Romans. First civ on the list of civs in civ 1 and civ 2. Anyone played Caesar 3?

	28-08-2001 15:15									#4
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Romans And yes, I played Caesar 2 and 3.

	28-08-2001 17:58									#5
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I would say the Egyptians ... I could explain, but it wouldn't be worth the extra effort... it's self explanatory

	28-08-2001 18:23									#6
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Romans, of course.

Now let's hope that Firaxis don't give them a silly leader face...

	28-08-2001 19:22									#7
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I'd say Egyptians, since they all started the whole Civ thingy for real those Sumerians, are were not a serious civ...

	28-08-2001 19:35									#8
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The Chinese of course, you imposters

	28-08-2001 17:13									#9
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Chinese all the way, the others don't even come close.

quote: I would say the Romans... I could explain, but it wouldn't be worth the extra effort... it's self explanatory

Not self-explanatory, or you have no reason?

	28-08-2001 17:36									#10
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Hey this thread would be biasd, wouldn't it? I mean most people here are from North America and Europe, so I mean wouldn't the poll be biased in that it will lean toward western civs?

A poll like this can only be for entertainment purpose, but the results won't be accurate.

	28-08-2001 19:16									#11
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I think DarkCloud was thinking of a Roman achievement (like architecture or law) and thought that you would all catch on. It is a silly idea to assume that everyone understands what you are saying...

I vote for the Greeks and Romans. The Greek culture was able to survive thousands of years under many non-Greek rulers and still does today. Roman culture did not but their language and laws survived mostly intact.

China may have a lot of achievements to its name but they opted to shut out the rest of the world and actually let people rise to leadership in their country with the intent of destroying their culture! I think, for a country to be great, they should be able to preserve their culture no matter what. Note: I am NOT stating this is the only requirement and I am not going to argue about my view on it. Just saying this because of all the anti-Civ debates here because of other people's views on what a civ is.

	28-08-2001 20:30									#12
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Babylonians/Sumerian/Metsopatamian culture - birthplace of Western Civ definitely is the most deserving.

Of course others like Chinese, Romans, Egyptian, and Greeks are a close second.

	28-08-2001 20:31									#13
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quote: Originally posted by YefeiPi Hey this thread would be biasd, wouldn't it? I mean most people here are from North America and Europe, so I mean wouldn't the poll be biased in that it will lean toward western civs? A poll like this can only be for entertainment purpose, but the results won't be accurate.

Biases on Apolyton. What is the world coming to?

	28-08-2001 20:33									#14
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Deserving of what?

I would vote American, if it is most deserving of a good hiding.

	28-08-2001 23:15									#15
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Greeks, hands down.

	28-08-2001 23:57									#16
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quote: Babylonians/Sumerian/Metsopatamian culture - birthplace of Western Civ definitely is the most deserving.

This is bias I'm talking about

quote: China may have a lot of achievements to its name but they opted to shut out the rest of the world and actually let people rise to leadership in their country with the intent of destroying their culture! I think, for a country to be great, they should be able to preserve their culture no matter what. Note: I am NOT stating this is the only requirement and I am not going to argue about my view on it. Just saying this because of all the anti-Civ debates here because of other people's views on what a civ is.

Even though China shut off from the rest of the world, China today is very much the same culture as it was many thousands of years ago. China has preserved its culture very well over the time actually, unlike aztecs and babylonians who more or less don't exist anymore. China's greatness is undoubted.

	29-08-2001 04:34									#17
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1. Caesar- you said exactly what I was thinking. Its culture is one of the longest and most advanced... the only real rivals are Egypt, Greece (which could be debated as better...), China.

2. Interestingly enough, Mods can edit polls to allow more than 10 options I only set 10... There now seem to be 16 :hmm:

	29-08-2001 06:01									#18
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quote: 1. Caesar- you said exactly what I was thinking. Its culture is one of the longest and most advanced... the only real rivals are Egypt, Greece (which could be debated as better...), China.

Sorry but I disagree.
Romans: one of the longest? Yes, however, not as long as Egypt and China, don't know about Greece.
THE most advanced civ? I seriously doubt it. On what terms do you say Romans is the most advanced? Militarily, the Mongols beats the romans in terms of land conquered. Science? Many other civs easily beats it. Population? I don't think so.

	29-08-2001 06:27									#19
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quote: Greece.

I was going to pass but now!!!!
I voted for the USA, however Greece has been around a long time and are still here.

	29-08-2001 06:47									#20
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I would have to say chinese.

Though other Civs like the Greeks, Romans, Eygiptians, English, and Americans (boo ) have influenced culture a lot in their own respect. NO other culture has existed and influenced the world for as long as the Chinese have.

Where the Greeks and Romans came and went, Chinese continued to develop a distinct culture, while extremely influencing the world. 800 AD- Silks and trade with europe 1400 Marco polo reopening china, gun powder and other inventions. Elizabethian furnature?? try chinese. Even know the chinese culture influences so much of the world. And because their people are spread far and wide, many countries escape the influence of a modern China. They also influenced the JApanese and later india (which equally influenced China).

And to challenge the Roman theory; they are just greeks with a little more modern flare. They still have the right to be in the game though.

	29-08-2001 09:07									#21
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quote: Originally posted by Fiera Romans, of course. Now let's hope that Firaxis don't give them a silly leader face...

If they dont make it a good image if Caesar i hope they use Maximus (Russel Crow) .

	29-08-2001 16:19									#22
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quote: Originally posted by YefeiPi This is bias I'm talking about

And I acknowledged that it occured even from me. Everyone is biased, yes even you.

quote: Even though China shut off from the rest of the world, China today is very much the same culture as it was many thousands of years ago. China has preserved its culture very well over the time actually, unlike aztecs and babylonians who more or less don't exist anymore. China's greatness is undoubted.

I am not doubting their greatness. I after all said China is a close second in my post. But you must admit that Babylon influenced a lot of the world. So did Egypt, Greece, and Rome. So there are a lot of deserving civs and to say one is above another does not mean that someone is wrong. Just that they have a different view than you.

	29-08-2001 17:12									#23
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Yes, I am definitely biased However, even though Babylonians, Greeks and Romans are influential to a certain extent, in my opinion I do not think they had as much.

	29-08-2001 17:22									#24
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Somebody got to choose Russia or India.

	29-08-2001 20:42									#25
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quote: Originally posted by YefeiPi Yes, I am definitely biased However, even though Babylonians, Greeks and Romans are influential to a certain extent, in my opinion I do not think they had as much.

As much? What influence? As the Chinese?

Come on. How can you say that?

Your from Canada. Your country is infinitely influenced more by the Romans and Greeks than the Chinese. All of Western Culture is. Now that leaves the Chinese influencing Asia (an Asia minus Russia which once it turned Communist is highly influenced by the west). Which one is more important to history?

Well I guess that is is going to be opinionated but I would say that the Western Civilization on Earth is far more powerful today than any in Earth's history. I would say that the west is impacting China today more than China is influencing the West. The West put people in space. The West has overcome a lot and the tradition is very strong. So yes despite my bias I would say that the birthplace of Western Civilization in Babylon, Greece, and Rome is a much stronger and important to history than China.

	29-08-2001 21:22									#26
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Now fred is gonna have to remove his previous vote.

They are all equally important, influence wise because with even a single culture removed from the earth's history the culture would be change indefinately.

Take any culture and its unfluences and what those influences did.

Now if you remove say even a culture in Africa, it easily travels and affects the cultures in Europe. So when you ask what is most deserving, cultures un heard of by most people could have changed the world by such a great amount through cause and effect.

Really they are all equally important so blah.

The reason why these civs are in and others arent is because if they have no name civs everyone would bicker whine complain and not buy the game. But they are all equal. Fred wins, wheres his prise?

	30-08-2001 06:28									#27
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quote: Well I guess that is is going to be opinionated but I would say that the Western Civilization on Earth is far more powerful today than any in Earth's history. I would say that the west is impacting China today more than China is influencing the West. The West put people in space. The West has overcome a lot and the tradition is very strong. So yes despite my bias I would say that the birthplace of Western Civilization in Babylon, Greece, and Rome is a much stronger and important to history than China.

Well, there is a time when Chinese lived in nice designed houses and Europeans are still living in mud houses, much less North Americans. China was never so far behind the west as the west was once with China. The West put people in space, China has given the world gun powder, I mean which is more practical? Aren't all wars fought with gun powder? How else did English colonize so many countries? With pitchforks? China has overcome more than the west in terms of struggle as a civilization, I mean which western civilization rivals China in terms of the longest survival and still was able to maintain a very unique culture? To me, all the western European countries are very much alike.

Also when you say that the Western Civilization on Earth is far more powerful today than any in Earth's history. How can you pitch the entire western civilzations against China's single history? The western civs includes many: English, French, German, Americans, Greeks, Romans, etc. It's like saying my group of sheeps are better than your single cow. If you pitch any single western civilization, China can easily match it if not beating it.

I would believe China is more important to history than western civs you have mentioned. See it's all about opinion. You will probably never change what I feel, and I can never change yours and we will both try to prove our bias. As I said, this thread is very opinionated. Which civ wins the poll does not reflect the reality.

	30-08-2001 07:07									#28
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China was as advanced, but it didn't affect history that much (unless of course you consider Mongolia a Chinese-type civilization) Affecting much in the idea that they spread their technology. Yes, china conquered large stretches of land, yes they tried to colonize Japan, yes they invented fireworks... They are easily the equals of the Greeks- but the Romans?

The Romans were a military machine, much like Alexander the Great and the Macedonian Greeks. They exerted as much influence as china ever did in its golden ages.

China never developed gunpowder except in fireworks- the europeans invented gunpowder in guns.

Unique chinese history- they have 2 official languages for heavens sake, that means there are at LEAST 2 different cultures... China is a model for cooperation of peoples, but they havent really merged together well it seems...

	30-08-2001 08:45									#29
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mermur...

Apples and oranges is where you are at.

How can you gadge the affect of one civilization on another, especially on the scale you decide to choose. Seriously, I don't really believe many people know the influence China had on Europe. The silk trade of the 1500 or 1600s gave portugal and spain untold riches. I'm not even about to comment on the influence China had dating back to BC (Yes it did have influence back then). Culture travels far. This is not to include the influence of the trade routes started back in 500 AD.

Then you take into acount Sun Tzu's Art of War. Think of the influence that had on Napolean as he charged across the European continent. Maybe Napy would have lost his first battle if he hadnt read it? Who can really gadge what influence they had.

Add to the current economy, if China decided to shut down all the american factories that produce their products at loiw costs it would severly damage the American economy. So who has the control? You can add the fact that China just being there changes US's world stance.

But it goes both ways. But I return to my original post: Each culture that has ever existed is equally important. Removing one could change drastically how the future turns out. Remove Nubia and all of a sudden Eygpt would totally change. Adversly affecting the middle east, Greece, and Northern Africa (Directly). Through those contacts Africa would be changed, Rome would be altered, Persian Empire who knows what would happen. Through those India is affected hence China, Japan, Korea. Celts are affected the "savage" tribes of germany. The vikings affected, the huns, vandals. The Christian religon. The Byzantium Empire. Franks, Normans, Muslim, Russians, Japanese, Indians, Chinese, Mongols. Empires of 1500 europe are affected. Thus the history of north america is affected, South america.

The simple demonstration of removing the Nubians shows that the affects would be as drastic as removing the chinese, the greeks, or the romans. Every culture is equally important in creating a modern culture.

And just something to add: Cantonese and Mandarian both use the same characters. It is the pronouncation is different. Each area has its own dialect in China. But it is simply at the basics been the same language since atleast 1 AD. It just has evolved differently. As latin did, but not as drastic. And as English is now doing.

	30-08-2001 15:27									#30
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The problem with this poll is that nation-states and civilizations are mixed up. The western civilization consists of a number of nations. Those are not civilizations in their own right. The start of the western civ can be placed around 800 AD, when the christianization of Europe was done. Then it consisted of a mix of Celto-Germanic and Roman influences, Rome itself consisting of influences from the Greeks, Jews, Egypt and various other Middle Eastern civilizations and nations.
When Europe started looking beyond its borders, they took home (with or without cooperation ) anything that seemed useful, be it technological, material and even cultural. In that way the West was influenced by virtually all contemporary and predecessory civilizations. In turn, through colonization, trade and various forms of imperialism, the West influenced and influences all peoples on earth (and someday beyond, for sure).

So what's the difference between the West and China? China stayed the same, conserved its culture (an extremely decent one, let that be sure) for thousands of years. The West changed, summarized and innovated. Which made them supreme around 1900 AD.
But then the cultural diversity and technological advancement, which allowed them to rule, caused the downfall... of only half the civ, thanks to the widespread expansion. Which allowed the West to survive as a whole (Marshall-plan, though it was only to provide customers for US industry, but thank you anyway). The prime reasons for domination (and consequently importance) are thus adaptation and innovation.


On the languages:
Serbians and Croatians can perfectly be understood by each other, but the languages have a different alphabet, Cyrillic and Latin (for political reasons). Turkish was written in Arabian, but Kemal Ataturk changed it to Latin. French, English, Dutch, German, Spanish, .. are all written in the same alphabet. The criterium to determine whether you have to deal with one or two languages is mutual comprehensibility. If they cannot understand each other, they speak a different language. Any alphabet can be used to write whatever language.