24-02-2001 18:41									#1
	What determines the appearance of barbs Got spare money?

I am playing a multiplayer with barbs set at raging. I am the leading civ and got wave after wave of barbs, lost 2 cities wiped out. That was until I discovered another civ. Then barb activity dropped right away. Then I got city from a hut far from my capital, and barbs are attacking that in waves, which suits me.

Can someone make sense of this?


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Chaos, panic and disorder - My work here is done.

	24-02-2001 19:08									#2
	Increase Your PM Length

AFAIK, the following factors apply:

[1] Barbs are generated in specific tiles
[2] Barbs are generated at specific times, if they pass a die-roll
[3] Chances of Barbs appearing depends on the terrain
[4] Chances of Barbs appearing decrease when you discover more terrain (fog of war retreats)
[5] Chances of Barbs appearing increase with certain advances

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	24-02-2001 19:12									#3
	Support Apolyton

The barbs only appear in desert areas (with desert, I mean that that area belongs to no one).
So, you have to expand your empire through the continent as fast as you can to put your cities radius over all available land. Observe that the barbs appear to show up almost from the same place, sometimes. Put a city there in a hurry. They´ll never show up again from there.

I don´t remember if this is in the manual, but this history means that the barbs tend to appear from areas which are not civilized yet. So, cover your continent lands with your cities radius as soon as possible.

This strategy always work.

	24-02-2001 19:23									#4
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Hello, Ribannah,

IMHO, I think that [4] and [5] don´t apply... Here are my comments:

[4] It has happened that, even after Apollo Program, when I gain pictures of all tiles, hordes of modern barbs appears in uncivilized lands. Sometimes they´re more than 50 units. So I´m sometimes forced to nuke them and clean the mess later.

[5] I don´t feel any evidence of this, unfortunately.

[1],[2] and [3] may be true, though.

	24-02-2001 19:42									#5
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I´m not sure at all, but I have expirienced many barb attacks, and there seems to be a certain regularity. Barbs can show up in two ways: Either jumping from a ship or just appearing somewhere on the map.
Landbased Barbs: I agree thet there are certain "barb-breeding" spots, and I claim that they never ever appear inside a city radius. I´ve expirienced quite often late in the game, when most of the landmass is colonized, barb hordes can show up about any map tile that`s not inside a city radius.
"Seabased" barb attacks can appear next to your cities, inside a city radius.
That´s my knowledge about barbs. I`m sure there´s far more information than this somewhere...

	24-02-2001 23:38									#6
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Craftsman, it is because of [5] that Barbs can appear despite [4].

Once I killed a stack of 19 Barbs with a single, freshly bribed Chariot

- Rib -

Edit: it's true that within the city limits no Barbs will ever be generated

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If you have no feet, don't walk on fire
[This message has been edited by Ribannah (edited February 24, 2001).]

	25-02-2001 01:07									#7
	Support Apolyton

You won't get land based barbs within five squares of any city, so you have some warning. You won't get barbs from a hut if the hut is within a city radius. Sea barbs are another matter. I have had them drop in next to a city any old time. The only pattern I think I have noticed is that you tend to get more near the polar areas than near the equator.

	25-02-2001 01:36									#8
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Related question: Anybody know what determines Barbarian disappearance? Two examples, each in contradiction to the other:

1) In a recent game, I was bringing a goody-hut legion home when I noticed a barb headed his way. The legion (and the barb crusader) were both on an isthmus, so I moved the legion to the best defensive terrain available, fortified, and prayed. Next turn: the barb has vanished.

2) In a game a while back, part of a land mass never got settled (it was separated from the rest of the land mass -- and the Zulu empire -- by some of the worst terrain I've ever seen). The area contained a barb "hot spot" and, by the time I built Apollo, it was just swarming with barbs -- something like 3-4 per tile over a 40-50 tile area. The barbs turn took longer than all other civs combined! So why didn't these guys vanish?

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[This message has been edited by Rufus T. Firefly (edited February 24, 2001).]

	25-02-2001 12:26									#10
	Avatar Enlargement: We've got the solution

If I have warning by sighting a barb ship headed for one of my cities, especially one without city walls, I have found that loading up the coastline with anything, engineers, settlers, freight, caravans, dips or spys or troops, will cause the ship to stall right outside the city. If you post something in every square which could be a landing spot, and even if you have to empty the city, the barb ship will not be able to unload its troops. This has often given me time to finish building whatever (like a caravan) and switch to city walls. When they are complete, I move my troops back in, and get all the non-combatants out of the way. Then let the barbs hurl themselves at my tripled defensive troops and DIE!

Havin' fun civin'


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Before you criticize your enemy, walk a mile in his shoes. Then if he gets really angry at your criticism, you are a mile away, and he is barefoot.

	25-02-2001 14:50									#11
	Inflate your Upload Space

It seems to me that as soon as all the ocean squares are uncovered the barb sailing ships cease to appear.

BTW, some people like barb generation points- even to the point of letting them have a city. Then send in a diplomat and either buy the city with all the barb units around it or sitting outside the city and buying cheap NON units one at a time for years.

	25-02-2001 19:42									#12
	Avatar Enlargement: We've got the solution

I found this thread in the Archives and don't forget to refer to William Keenan's Barbarian Paper. Also this one from the Great Library.
______________
The Sigless Git

[This message has been edited by Scouse Gits (edited February 25, 2001).]

	25-02-2001 20:12									#13
	Remove this text

a little while ago i did an experiment were i made a map and had the a1 all start on 1 big continent and me on a small island very far away, i turned on all visible in cheat menu and i got ALOT of information on a1 tactics, and barb stuff.

1. barbs always apear from sea at the same spots.
2. i didn't notice much breeeding on the main continent till legions and catapults.
3. it seems to me that barbs get some kind of penalty couse they never killed ANYTHING.
4. barbs apear eather very far (the farthest point from any civ i noticed) or just outside the radius.
5. barb units are always close to being cutting edge but never are the best ( barb crusaders vs dragoons)
6. barbs are stronger when they apear as peasent revolts(6-7) then off ships (2-3)

p.s. try making barb units in the cheat menu without using advanced and they only have warriors and settlers

	25-02-2001 20:40									#14
	Increase Your PM Length

from my limited experience appears barbs in MP attack the biggest civ more..

ALso appears they are attracted to the weakest citys ...

	26-02-2001 10:25									#15
	Got spare money?

I think whether or not they appear on a turn depends on a roll of the dice, with the probability increased for a recently weakened or defenseless city, and for other situations listed above.

One thing that is fun to do is to build a city on a medium-sized island near an AI who has been bugging you, and leave it defenseless. The barbarians quickly find and capture it and seem to keep themselves busy for the rest of the game in Mr. AI's neighborhood, breeding endless hordes and hordes around that city.

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	26-02-2001 05:11									#16
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i question the five tile rule for new cities..... seems to me i have had barbs appear three tiles from my city and move two spaces......

	26-02-2001 06:33									#19
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War4ever:
Was the entire 5-square area explored? If barbs arise in dark space, you won't see them until they hit the known part of your map. Hence, a good reason to explore a bit.
[This message has been edited by Adam Smith (edited February 25, 2001).]

	26-02-2001 14:12									#20
	Increase Your PM Length

Actually, you don't need to build a city to prevent barbs appearing. Just move any kind of unit (I use diplo's for that) to the area those barbs keeps popping and you don't see them anymore there!

	26-02-2001 19:41									#21
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Adam Smith.... your probably correct on this....... i must be leaving the odd space black.... then presto.... barbs......they always come like two turns after i build or find a city ....especially if it is on the outskirts of my empire......

I will start watching for this with more vigor now

	27-02-2001 16:22									#23
	Full PM-box? Change here!

Ya. Happened to me a heap of times. Build a city in the barb "hot point" and the "hot point" moves somewhere else. They just leap out of the ground.

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	28-02-2001 09:07									#26
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There was a time when I had inadvertently left a semi-colon out of the rules.txt somewhere (end of techs I think but not sure). For some reason whenever I started a game I always had 3-4 barb gen points nearby my starting area. And boy would they generate. It was always a fight for survival for the 1st several 1000 years until I could scoot a settler into the generation areas. Then everything quieted down to normal.

It was fun, after the 1st game (which was frustrating!).

	01-03-2001 06:10									#27
	Suffering from ads?

I think barbs frequency also depends on what the ai is doing in other areas. For example if ai civs are churning out units and fighting wars, barb activity seems to drop away, at least in multiplayer. If there is a barb hotspot under these circumstances, it is usually in a remote area of the map.


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Chaos, panic and disorder - My work here is done.

	06-03-2001 09:48									#28
	Lose 30 kilos (of popups)

If you think "Raging Hordes" are bad, check out what happens when the setting is "Barbarian Wrath" (available via hex editing only):

http://members.nbci.com/kull1/scena...creenshot1.html

	06-03-2001 17:43									#29
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Most of the Barb units just appear like the other units of that type in the units.gif file in your Civ directory, though with a red alpha channel. The leader is in there too. Its quite straight forward to edit their appearance though, you'll find more in the scenario creation forum.