28-08-2001 22:44									#1
	SAS Dip Playtest Discussion Thread Increase the size of your Attachments

Hi everyone, I'm posting this discussion thread topic on the SAS variant designed by Benjamin Hester ( bthester777@earthlink.net ) at his request. And while this discussion might be best discussed after the game is actually over, I think most issues here have to do with opening game situations, and discussion can go forward.

Anyway, here's your chance to vent, suggest, tweak, etc., this interesting variant from the man who borugh us Sengoku (Hagakure):

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The SAS homepage (http://home.earthlink.net/~bthester777/sas001.htm )
has been updated, and a tenative release of SAS Revision Two has been posted
there. The original materials have been removed, if anyone needs those
reposted on the website for the games they are running, please let me know, but
since one (Randolph Ruff's) uses his own (and dare I say, better) version of the
map, and the other is being run on RP (which can produce it's own maps) I didn't
think there would be a problem.

Anyway, in response to a lot of commentary, mostly centered around Venezuela and Paraguay, four significant changes have been made to the map. Three relate to Venezuela, one to Paraguay.

1. Sea border between GDa and GPa has been moved so that both Mar and
Crc now touch GDa. (greatly increasing the attack potential of Venezuela
versus Colombia, and vice versa)

2. The starting positions of Venezuela's pieces has been switched. Now it's A Mar and F Crc, instead of the other way around.

3. SC Barinas has been removed, and Angostura now touches the sea (GPa and BdN), and is an SC along with Cumana.

These three create the following desired effect - Venezuela can now deflect a Colombian attack on Maracaibo from Cartagena and Bogota, AND still ensure getting one build. However, if Colombia and Venezuela want to gain two builds, they will have to cooperate and agree to DMZ Santa Marta and Llanos (in the following sequence:

Colombia SPRING - F Car - GDa, A Bog - Cal, F Cal - Gpn. FALL - F Car - Pnm NC, A Cal - Qui, F GPn - Gal. AND Venezuela SPRING - A Mar - Crc, F Crc - GPa. FALL, A Crc - ***, F GPa - Ang.) Which also conveniently sets Venezuela up for convoys into Brasilian territory next year.


I (BH) would like to start a discussion on the DVWorkshop about this sequence's
strengths and weaknesses, and SAS opening strategies in general, since all
current games are well past the opening, and such a discussion wouldn't affect those games. I ask that such a discussion be limited only to the first two years of gameplay. HOWEVER, if anyone currently playing a game of SAS objects to such a discussion going on because they think it will affect their game, then we won't do it. Just send me an email privately, and I will notify the group. But I hope the discussion will proceed, so I can take your opinions into account, and finalize the revision, and then make RP support for it.


As for Paraguay:

4. SC Tucuman added. In my own simulations, I couldn't find much of a real reason for Paraguay to ever attack Argentina before. In the first revision, Argentina and Paraguay could cooperate very well against Brasil (which would be Paraguay's natural inclination anyway, trying to break out of the center to a coastline) by launching an attack on Sao Paulo with the two Paraguayan armies and the Argentine fleet in Buenos Aires. The best Brasil and Paraguay can do is try to stay out of each others way while they attack Argentina on two separate fronts. (while Paraguay buries herself deeper in between Chile, Bolivia, and Brasil). That's still the general situation, but now the promise of taking Corrientes and Tucuman (SPRING A Asu - Crt, A Con - For, FALL A Crt S A For - Tuc, A For - Tuc) makes the idea much more appealing.



On the other hand, if the Argentine is a succesful diplomat, and succeeds in courting one of the two "alliance pairs" of their 4 neighbors (usually while/Paraguay or Bolivia/Brasil) then Tucuman could easily come under their
belt. All this can be discussed in detail on the Workshop.



So please take a look at the new map, and join the discussion on the Workshop. I'd also like to name the most popular openings (you know, like the Lepanto or the Austrian Hedgehog, for example) with famous battles from the time period, or just catchy names. So feel free to submit any of those (for Revision 2) that you might have.



Thanks for playing SAS,

Last edited by RUFFHAUS 8 on 28-08-2001 at 23:50

	28-08-2001 22:51									#2
	Put an end to popups!

I am going to "discuss" this game in detail, Randy, and I will do it tonight, I know it's game night but just wanted to briefly say I believe this game has potential to be a great game with a few modifications and one you mentioned to Ven.

I have to go home and cut the grass now, but "I'LL BE BACK".

	28-08-2001 23:17									#3
	Full PM-box? Change here!

Well, for realism sake, and daresay some flavour, if the Andes are impassable I believe that the Amazon rainforest should be much more difficult to cross. Right up until the 1950s this mass of trees was virtually impassble, so I'd probably go to splitting huge territories like Ama, MaG, Mrh and Par into smaller territories for example.

	29-08-2001 05:03									#4
	Support Apolyton

Impassable zones are more of a play balance issue rather than a realism issue. You place them for a political and tactical purpose as much as you do a terrain purpose. Consider the fact that we're dealing with units that respond like chess pieces.

Personally, I'm more concerned with the balance of powers...

	29-08-2001 05:18									#5
	Tired of ads?

Well, I'm worthless at seeing the long term balance of power. Since I'm playing, I felt like I had to add my two cents.

	29-08-2001 12:33									#6
	Remove this text

Ruff,
I was going to argue that Ven still looks very inviting to an attack by Columbia by playing a F-Car > GDa and A-Bog > Lla for a fall setup of Mar. Now Ven would lose Mar if they moved as you indicated in your suggested moves. However, upon futher review if I am that leary of Columbia I can always suggest a planned bounce in GDa and move A-Mar to Bar. Thus if Columbia is being played by Sahib(The Stabber) and he moves his fleet Sam for an assault on Mar, you as the Ven player now have several choices at your hand. You can bounce him out of Mar by supporting your army from Bar back to Mar or you can attempt to take one of several open SC's including CAr a home SC.

Now, if it is Chazzy the reliable playing Columbia and he bounces you in Gda you now can achieve one SC growth in the first year, yes it is slower than gaining the two you would like but it is better than losing one of your home SC's in the first year, I can vouch for that.

The changes, IMO, are acceptable and I now would play this game again in this version.

You agree with my analysis Ruff?