29-08-2001 14:13									#1
	ICS & OCC tougher in civ3 Support Apolyton, pre-order Civilization IV

I read on the Civ 3 Site that settlers now decrease the size of a city by 2, & workers by 1 to prevent the use of the ICS strategy . This may have had an unforseen consequence on the OCC strategy , as you will need workers to build the colonies to harvest the resources that an "unfriendly" civ may refuse to trade with you . As it is , you may not have much to trade with in the first place , having only one city . Unless you have a REALLY big culture rating , you may need quite a few workers in the 'Early Republic' stage , when techs are faster than normal , but production is low due to support . The decrease in pop required to produce those workers may cripple you growth in the stage where you most need it . In OCC , you can't have the borders you really desire , as you have only one city . Can anyone suggest any remedy ?

	29-08-2001 14:20									#2
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dont do occ?

	29-08-2001 14:22									#3
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OCC definately does suffer. That is not the only bad effect on it, but I'd rather have rock-solid gameplay under normal conditions than have to do OCC to be challenged.

	29-08-2001 14:29									#4
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The OCC is a special challenge, and I'm sure that it will still have an interesting group chasing after it in civ3, until someone breaks it. then we'll all be in awe for a couple of weeks, then play OCC every once in a while to show ourselves how easy it is.

making the game rock solid in normal play doesn't detract from the OCC. we'll find a way. it's only been a couple of years since the first OCC reported on this site. before then, people thought it was pretty impossible on deity.

now, I still haven't gotten the mix right to do OCC in civ1 on emperor

	29-08-2001 14:35									#5
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quote: making the game rock solid in normal play doesn't detract from the OCC

It doesn't detract from it, it just makes it harder. If the normal game is really a challenge, then OCC isn't necessary (for me)

	29-08-2001 18:24									#6
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It's not the pop requirements that makes the OCC harder, it's the resource requirements. Before Civ 3 you still need to build settlers that require 1 pop each, and you still have to suport them with food and perhaps shields.

The point about OCC is that it is a challenge. Why make it easy?

	29-08-2001 18:30									#7
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Well, if the AI is anything worth, OCC should be totally impossible.

	29-08-2001 18:31									#8
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I mean what would you do with that one big, wonder filled city in your backyard?

	29-08-2001 18:46									#9
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i concur.

try that occ crap in a game of at least 4 human players and your dead. TOAST.

if there is a somewat competant AI in the game, they'll try to bully you around, at the very least.

	29-08-2001 20:24									#10
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quote: Originally posted by UberKruX if there is a somewat competant AI in the game, they'll try to bully you around, at the very least.

I think that the AI-programmers at Firaxis should add a discrete under-the-hood "alarm-trigger" that regulary check out if the player stubbornly tries to play extreme OCC and extreme ICS.

Above can be achieved by simply letting the software collect HP "found city" actions, and compare the result with number of succesful HP "build city-improvenment (and wonders)" actions. If the result gradually shows more and more extreme results, an especially prepared AI-civ answering-response should spring in to action. A strong counter-acting response especially targeted at the weak Archilles-heels of above two strategies.

The reason, why the team should do this is that is most of us is sick and tired of hearing (some) civers bragging about "spanking the **** out of the AI" by playing in not-originally-intended and obviously game-rules-misusing ways.

	29-08-2001 20:42									#11
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quote: Well, if the AI is anything worth, OCC should be totally impossible.

I love it when people say something is impossible, and then proving them wrong.

Actually, I havn't set any records, as I was never the first person to attempt or do anything. . but i HAVE done some amazing things on civ2, things that sound impossibly, but if done right, are actually quite easy. size 1 city, located on a polar icecap OCC anyone? DONE 1890 landing, just 1 year ahead of the russians. That's not a record, but it's decent, and i'm a mediocre player at best.

So what will be impossible in civ3? Nothing, as far as i'm concerned.

Ralf: There is no reason to do anything like that. You know the game Monopoly? You know how somepeople, whenever they have to pay a fine, they put it in the middle, and then the first person to land on "free parking" gets the money? That's not the original rules, but it's still a fun game. You play the game how ever you want, and let others play the game how they want. Artificial rules to correct non-existant problems are needless.

Nevertheless, if they include silly rules like that, you can bet there will still be a way around them.

	29-08-2001 20:55									#12
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I said that should be impossible when there is a decent AI. Just as it is impossible in multiplayer.

	29-08-2001 21:16									#13
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Paul, from now on i want you to write in a russian accent and try to get an animated avatar .

also, end every post by saying "spank me" or something of the sort.

	29-08-2001 21:30									#14
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This is not a problem. Even if ICS and OCC were impossible in civ 3, which they won't be, with all the new features it has, I'm sure there will be many more interesting strategies and loopholes to use when playing it. People will figure out some great strategies for civ 3 within a week of its release. I'm sorry if you can't play exactly the same as you did in civ 3, but boo fugging hoo.

	30-08-2001 01:28									#15
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Well OCC should be rock hard, but it will just mean you have to prioritise; get the luxuries you need, forget resources except the ones you really need, and try and trade for resources until you have the power to gain access to them yourself...

	30-08-2001 02:01									#16
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it might be fun to play as esypt on the world map against one AI civ (americans) and try to get all the resources in Europe/Africa/Asia with only one city

	30-08-2001 07:13									#17
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I know this may seem a bit unorthodox, but OCC is One City Challage. Colonies are not cities: Couldn't you just use colonies throughout the world to get resources?

	30-08-2001 07:32									#18
	Inflate your Upload Space

True, but each colony costs one pop point, not to meantion that they all have to be connected to you city by road (unless you use another civ's ariport/harbour perhaps), each resource guarded from barbarians and other civs, and all the roads kept in good shape from the barbarians.

Not impossible, granted, but nevertheless much more difficult than in Civ 2

Last edited by Skanky Burns on 30-08-2001 at 13:35

	30-08-2001 07:37									#19
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i must have missed a few threads somewhere. but, what is OCC?

	30-08-2001 09:40									#20
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ICS is unstoppable. Even if democracy + We Love the President no longer causes your population to skyrocket, I'll just use size 3 cities to build settlers. Since they're small, they will return to their former size faster than losing 2 citizens from a size 25 city.

quote: Originally posted by Nemo i must have missed a few threads somewhere. but, what is OCC?

I'd like to know too.

	30-08-2001 10:39									#21
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OCC = One City Challenge

	30-08-2001 18:19									#22
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something from the computer games magazine thread:

After a city reaches 100,000 cultural points, it achieves a cultural victory, if that is allowed. that could be another way to OCC. forget the starship, just become culturally magnificent (which you generally do on the way to AC anyway).

on another point, we don't know what happens when a colony of yours is engulfed by another civ's culture radius. is it disbanded, or does it continue. can BOTH of you draw off it then?

I can see this running into problems if you're doing an OCC and have colonies all over the place to supply your city. you could put a defender in each one, but that would be difficult to maintain as they become islands surrounded by another culture. especially if that phalanx in there is way outclassed. leos may become a neccessary wonder.

	30-08-2001 22:14									#23
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quote: Originally posted by connorkimbro I love it when people say something is impossible, and then proving them wrong.

quote: Originally posted by Executor ICS is unstoppable

OCC and ICS dont have to be "impossible" or "unstoppable" - It just have to be "not worthwhile", or "not justifiable".

quote: You play the game how ever you want, and let others play the game how they want.

If some veteran-civers want to play OCC successfully on cheftain-levels, thats fine by me. But WHY should this be possible on emperor- an deity-levels? I think this OCC-enabling request of yours is rather absurd - dont you want a more challenging AI on the 2-3 highest levels? Dont you want to be surprised by the fact that your old sleepwalk-routine Civ-2-strategies perhaps doesnt work anymore? (God forbid!)

Personally, I want to be surprised. Dont you?

quote: Artificial rules to correct non-existant problems are needless.

There is nothing more artificiall then OCC in multiplayer games. And what is possible or not in MP-games should be the leadstar in SP-games as well, as much as possible.

quote: Originally posted by Father Beast After a city reaches 100,000 cultural points, it achieves a cultural victory, if that is allowed. that could be another way to OCC.

You cannot build multiple culture-improving city-improvements of one and the same type, in an 1 city-empire. Only one library; only one church, and so one, is allowed per city. So it looks like your neighbor 15+ city-empire, with 15+ librarys and 15+ churches automatically can produce both more cultural points and much faster.

Im however all positive to the idea of adding anti-BAB (bigger always better) measures in Civ-3. Hopefully small 6-12 city-empires is compensated by being allowed to grow really large cities, with less happiness-problems. But everything within reasonable limits, of course. Game-winning OCC-empires is just plain ridicules - at least on higher game-levels.

	31-08-2001 01:04									#24
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quote: Originally posted by Ralf You cannot build multiple culture-improving city-improvements of one and the same type, in an 1 city-empire. Only one library; only one church, and so one, is allowed per city. So it looks like your neighbor 15+ city-empire, with 15+ librarys and 15+ churches automatically can produce both more cultural points and much faster.

As I see it, it's like science in Civ 2. With the right city improvements and wonders in your city, the one city can generate huge numbers of beakers, surpassing a good-sized empire in getting techs. In Civ 3, if you build a few wonders and improvements early on, they produce more culture as time passes, keeping in line with the exponentially increasing culture growth numbers. The culture victory is not only tempting, but perhaps the preferred way of winning OCC. You don't have to worry about taking the direct path to Space Flight or increasing production to build spaceship parts, just getting a number to 100,000.

	31-08-2001 01:41									#25
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quote: Originally posted by Ralf You cannot build multiple culture-improving city-improvements of one and the same type, in an 1 city-empire. Only one library; only one church, and so one, is allowed per city. So it looks like your neighbor 15+ city-empire, with 15+ librarys and 15+ churches automatically can produce both more cultural points and much faster.

One could similarly say that in Civ2, you cannot build multiple science city-improvements of one and the same type in a 1-city empire. Only one library, only one university, and so on, is allowed per city. So it looks like your neighbor 15+ city empire, with 15+ libraries and 15+ universities can automatically produce more science beakers and do so much more quickly...

Yet somehow people are still successful at Civ2 OCC. Just as any security system is defeatable, any set of game rules is corruptible. (Wait! I meant to say any set of game rules can be elegantly mastered...)

	31-08-2001 01:50									#26
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occ, one city challange.

build one city, and improve the terrain asap, then pump out wonder after wonder.

you can get into space in the 1800s i believe.

	31-08-2001 02:06									#27
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quote: Originally posted by Edward One could similarly say that in Civ2,

The comparison with Civ-2 is simply not relevant since Civ-3 is an different and updated game in many ways.
Base your arguments from what you know from Civ-3 instead.

By the way - why no comments on below quote also?

quote: If some veteran-civers want to play OCC successfully on cheftain-levels, thats fine by me. But WHY should this be possible on emperor- an deity-levels? I think this OCC-enabling request of yours is rather absurd - dont you want a more challenging AI on the 2-3 highest levels? Dont you want to be surprised by the fact that your old sleepwalk-routine Civ-2-strategies perhaps doesnt work anymore? (God forbid!) Personally, I want to be surprised. Dont you?

	31-08-2001 05:54									#28
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quote: Originally posted by Ralf If some veteran-civers want to play OCC successfully on cheftain-levels, thats fine by me. But WHY should this be possible on emperor- an deity-levels? I think this OCC-enabling request of yours is rather absurd - dont you want a more challenging AI on the 2-3 highest levels? Dont you want to be surprised by the fact that your old sleepwalk-routine Civ-2-strategies perhaps doesnt work anymore? (God forbid!) Personally, I want to be surprised. Dont you? : confused:

Yes, i agree that the AI should make this impossible on higher levels.

There, you happy now??

	31-08-2001 06:33									#29
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do you need 100 000 culture points from one city? Thats what i thought, but I'm wrong two thirds of the time anyway, so...

	31-08-2001 20:48									#30
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quote: Ralf responding to connorkimbro If some veteran-civers want to play OCC successfully on cheftain-levels, thats fine by me. But WHY should this be possible on emperor- an deity-levels? I think this OCC-enabling request of yours is rather absurd - dont you want a more challenging AI on the 2-3 highest levels? Dont you want to be surprised by the fact that your old sleepwalk-routine Civ-2-strategies perhaps doesnt work anymore? (God forbid!) Personally, I want to be surprised. Dont you?

Yes, I would like a new challenge that forces me to come up with new ways to play. I agree that it would be good if the AI (and game as a whole) were more challenging than in Civ2. I'm a little concerned that we've heard a lot about civilizations, units, graphics, etc. - but not a peep about the AI. Not even some PR hand-waving about how the AI is vastly improved. I'd much rather have a smarter AI than new graphics, units, techs, etc. I'll try and hold judgement until we get a chance to play Civ3.

I don't think connorkimbro was saying that he wanted the game to be designed so he'll still be able to win via OCC. I think he was saying that no matter how they design the game - even including specific counter-strategy coding, someone will be able to achieve just about anything. Despite our lack of knowledge about Civ3, I think past experience really supports this point of view. Civ2 chariots were intentionally reduced in power from Civ1 chariots to stop early global conquest. Did this end early global conquest? Surprisingly (or perhaps not so surprisingly) players still achieve incredibly early Civ2 bloodlust wins.

As isaac brock alludes to, regardless of the rules - players will develop clever strategies that exploit those rules. Playing "better" is a natural instinct. The desire to continually play better will lead many players to fine tune their strategy until it exploits one or another aspect of the game. I'm not saying that creating lop-sided narrow repeatable strategies is a good thing, just that it's an inevitable thing. If a given player eventually finds some unbeatable strategy boring to use (ICS perhaps) - he'll switch over to a new (and perhaps less efficient) strategy to increase the challenge and fun of the game. If a given player finds that repeating the same strategy still gives him enjoyment and a challenge (OCC perhaps) he'll continue to use it.