29-08-2001 17:07									#1
	Dip 48 "Newbie" Fall 11 Resolution Help yourself to an AD-FREE life

STABS STABS STABS!!!!!!!!!!!!!
FRANCE AT 17 !!!!!!!!!!!!!!


Again, a proposal for a draw has been extendet, a DIAS (Turkey, France, Russia, Italy) draw that is. I want your votes on the draw with your winter 1911 adjustments. The vote will only pass if ALL
players vote "yes"
__________________________________________

RUSSIA (Ruffhaus the Great)

F North Sea - hold
A Moscow supports French A Warsaw - hold
A Livonia supports French A Warsaw - hold
A St. Petersburg supports A Moscow - hold
__________________________________________

ITALY (Orange the Truehearted)

A-Munich SUPPORTS French A-Berlin > Silesia
(F-Tyrrhenian Sea HOLD) dislodged by TF Rom, destroyed
A-Spain HOLD) dislodged by FF WMed, retreat OTB as wished by Italy
__________________________________________

FRANCE (Yoav the Mysterious)

A Lpl to Edi
F Bal to Swe
(A Bur to Mun) bounce IA Mun
A Ruh to Kie
A Ber sup A Bur to Mun
(F GoL sup F WMe to Spa) cut by TF Tus)
F WMe to Spa (sc)
A Mar sup F WMe to Spa
F NAf to WMe
F Tun sup F NAf to WMe
(A War sup Turkish A Ukr to Mos) no such move
F MAO to Por
__________________________________________

TURKEY (Siro the Invincible)

(A Pie s Italian Spa - Mar) no such move
(F Tus - GoL) bounce FF GoL
(F Ion s Italian Tyrr - Tun) no such move
F Nap s F Rom - Tyrr
F Rom - Tyrr
A Ven - Rom
A Ukr s Gal - War
(A Gal - War) bounce FA War
A Sil - Pru
A Boh - Sil
A Tyr s Italian A Mun
(A Sev - Mos) bounce RA Mos
A Bul - Rum
F Aeg c A Smy - Gre
A Smy - Gre
___________________________________________

THE RETREATS

only one retreat (IA Spa). Italy confirmed it to be OTB
___________________________________________

THE ADJUSTMENTS

France gains Spa, Por, Swe, Edi, War
Italy loses Spa, Por
Russia loses, Edi, Swe,
Turkey loses War

France: 5 builds
Russia: 2 disbands
Italy: no change
Turkey: 1 disband
___________________________________________

THE DEADLINES

Retreat due thursday, 30th, 6pm GMT

Winter 1911 due friday, 31st, 6pm GMT

spring 1912 due monday, 3rd, 6 pm GMT

Last edited by Sahib on 29-08-2001 at 17:34

	29-08-2001 17:19									#2
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Surely I should have only one disband - one unit was destroyed and I lost 2 SCs. I still have Munich as my only remaining SC.

And I'll just retreat OTB which saves me disbanding, so I believe that is now no disbands....

	29-08-2001 17:33									#3
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Yes, you are right. And OTB it is. Although, since this is a newbie game, let me give you a piece of advice: never ever retreat OTB. Even if the retreat is obvious. Retreating OTB gives your enemies a piece of information that you donīt have to give them.

	29-08-2001 17:53									#4
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http://www.geocities.com/ruffhaus8/ADCN/ADCNF11.gif

	29-08-2001 18:06									#5
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In this situation Sahib is technically correct. However, there are situations where a retreat OTB is a very sound tactical move. In this case it's pretty obvious that Orange isn't likely to stay in Gascony anyway.

Since we are offering advice here: Yoav, nice try, but you need EIGHTEEN (18) centers to win. OOOOOOOPS~! Here's a tip for you now... take the draw, because, you ain't gonna win!

Siro, in case you need anything (wink wink) The Tsar can be reached at ( RUFFHAUS8@aol.com ), that is until he departs for his Norwegian vacation.

	30-08-2001 03:43									#6
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Sorry Orange and Ruff.... I really didn't plan that long to do this..
But since draw offers were made for a 4 player victory, and I thought it wasn't weighted right, I wanted at least to clear the two of you, so me and Siro can have half a point each.
Another thing that helped was Ruff entering the North Sea, I have to admit - it made me suspicious.

P.S.... Siro: you were not supposed to notice I am to get 18 SC's!!!

	30-08-2001 03:51									#7
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quote: Originally posted by RUFFHAUS 8 that is until he departs for his Norwegian vacation.

Is tat a hint? should I look for Norway?
Anyway don't be mad ... I can't accept the draw until we are left at least 3 players... otherwise all of this was unworthy of taking the risk of...

	30-08-2001 20:55									#8
	Good Yoav! Got spare money?

You're an excellent Diplomat.


I can't believe all of the others actually had fallen for your trick. It was easy as hell seeing you would get 5 SCs.

I just never suspected Russia to be gullible aenough. And I'm disapponted in Italy - I told him about your intentions and urged him to act quickly.

The most obvious hint was the disapopintment when you realized you had 12 SCs and not 13. Then I had no doubt you wanted to get to 18 in one turn. But how the hell idd you think I would agree to let you do it?

All in all I'm disappointed in Russia and Italy. They're both not much of newbies....

	30-08-2001 23:29									#9
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I tell you what, I really should retrain myself, but I won't. You two peckerheads are something else. You wanna mouth off about who's gullible? That's a laugh! What F$(king choice did I have? What choice did Orange have? We tried to stop they Turkish solo, rather successfully I might add. I'd say the fact that I've been around 3-4 years after inherriting a crap position as a favor is a fair testament. I'm not embarassed by it. That's for sure. Orange has done even better.

If you wanna talk about gullible, lets talk about the guy who's been at 15 SCs for three years, and has been getting his ass kicked. Siro this game should have been so over three years ago. Only your bumbling incompetence has allowed Yoav back into the race. And that clown hadn't a clue of how to push you back.

All this smack talk is great, but let's see either of you two try this from the beginning of a game, and we'll see who does what and who's gullible. Now shut your pie hole and end this game (if you can that is!). Then we can start from scratch and I'll teach you a real lesson.

	30-08-2001 23:49									#10
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Siro, Yoav........
Did you ever watch Tora! Tora! Tora!

When the attack on Peral Harbor was over do you know what line the Japanese Admiral (Yamamoto) said about it,
" I think we have just awaken the sleeping giant "
He was right, there should be no cross-gaming but you two are asking to get your asses kicked in the next game.

Siro, you are right, Ruffhaus8 ain't much of a newbie, that is because he is arguably one of the best players playing this game. Now I am sure you were kidding when you made that comment but you should be careful how you say things. You are doing really good in the ADC game I am GM'ing and you have a real chance at making it to the final game, but be advised so do the likes of Ruffhaus, myself, Berzerker and some other good players and they may consider you lunchmeat that game.
BE GOOD!

	31-08-2001 03:22									#11
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As the GM I will refrain from commenting on the game moves (although I am burning to put in my two pence, having watched that game from the beginning). But allow me one more general remark:

I would be very careful about upsetting somebody who currently is 22nd in the world email tournament and is leading the individual stats in the yahoo tournament this year. People have been killed for less

	31-08-2001 05:58									#12
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Hey Ruff, calm down..
I never said anything about you, it's only that Siro who did that
Anyway I know you hadn't a choice, and I just had it fully exploited ...
Anyway noone here doubts your superior dip skills etc.. and besides, why are you taking everything so personally?

I could see that even though you WERE going with me with no intentions of stabbing me in the not-so-near future, you WERE taking precautions every now and then, and those only made me suspicious. I believe that in the last turn (when you moved to the North Sea), you didn't really want to offend me as I was afraid you were, though we did strictly agree on you NOT going there. A misunderstanding? perhaps. But it did get me very suspicious - for after all - you and Siro might have had something.
Anyway, sorry but... you of all players should know not to take stabs and such personally.. as it's only a game

And Siro... what I said was a joke. As a matter of fact I, too, believed that at least one of the two (Ruff and Orange) would prevent me from taking one SC for the least.
I didn't really think I would get 18 SC's, but instead was hoping for steady 17, so when you finish Russia and Italy (with my help, perhaps) we could have a nive 17-17 draw instead of that unfairly spread 12-15-4-3 draw.

Anyway, going on with our triple alliance (Me, Italy and Russia) would have lead this game nowhere. Perhaps after I would have rejected a few draw offers, Ruff might have decided to attack me.

	31-08-2001 06:04									#13
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And about what Defiant and Sahib said... I don't th it's fair to think this way. When playing a sole game, you should think about the consequnces in this game and in this game only.
It's not fair to treat a player 'well' in one game in order to get him to be nicer to you in another.
If I, say, stabbed Ruff, I don't think he should call a vandatta upon me in all other games I happen to play with him. Same goes for helping a player out from a desperate situation.
Players who remember things for other players from previous games are, in my opinion, morally wrong.
But... that's just what I think.

	31-08-2001 06:56									#14
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Yoav, I think you misunderstand me. In game - I am furious with you. Out of game - I admire the chance that you took. I think it was ill-timed and clumsy. And it's pretty lousy of you to say that we agreed about the North Sea, and use that as some bull$hit rationale for the stab. Grow some balls, man! Just admit that you wanted the solo. I TOLD you about the move to North Sea, and asked that you move to Yorkshire for a followup (fall) convoy. WE definately did not agree to this. You needed another army in Germany/Poland to prevent Siro from getting through (like he did in Prussia - oops). So in game - I am going to help Siro win, because you are a lying stabbing bastard. Now if we play again, that's another story.

As for Siro. In game - I have no problem with him. I'm going to help him solo, if he has the guts to take what's sitting right in front of him. Out of game - I think he's an arrogant donkey without a clue as to what's going on around him. To sit here and gloat over pummeling two mercy posions (Italy and Russia) who had no choice but to comply with major powers as they try to survive. This from the guy with a solo victory within reach for three years now, and almost lost it to you. So I'm challenging him to put his money where his mouth is. I'll be gunning for him one day. But then again, I'm gunning for everyone

Last edited by RUFFHAUS 8 on 31-08-2001 at 19:52

	31-08-2001 08:07									#15
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I appologize for the post, which was indeed arrogant.

Reading it now, it does sound harsh and patronising, but english is my 3rd language, so sometimes when seeking for
some words, I use ones with too harsh meanings.

By no means did I intend to sound better or to doubt Ruffhaus's or the Orange One's abilities. I can't come close to
even comprehend Ruffi's status, and while I don't know much about Orange, he played great with his cards, getting
Italy that was about yo be attacked by me and yoav, and keeping it alive for so long.

I was very sad that The Orange One didn't believe me and chose to colaborate with yoav, even though a rookie like
me could see Yoav is about to take whole of his towns. But again, maybe that is from experience, since I played
several games with yoav in RL and learnt to expect his attacks.

I also expected that Ruffhaus, being neutral, will try to defend your SC in england, and that was one of the major
points I expected yoav to lose in his calculation to get 18.

More than thinking of you, I was disappointed that things didn't turn out the way I expected them and that is wrong.

Again, I was of line in calling Ruffhaus and Orange Gullible and saying I am disappointed and such. I therefore apologize, and hope for the best.

I also hope Ruffhaus won't come to hunt me down in my next game

	31-08-2001 08:16									#16
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*runs into thread by mistake and reads*

It is destiny!

*runs to Siro*

Beware the Ruff! Beware The Ruffhaus8!

*runs out of thread babbling incoherently*

	31-08-2001 08:16									#17
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Not me.... I'm a nice guy

	31-08-2001 08:18									#18
	Lose 30 kilos (of popups)

I'm a nice guy???

*runs back into thread and stares long and hard at Ruff*

ROTFLMFAO!!!

*is scared of Ruff*

	31-08-2001 17:46									#19
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Yoav,
I am not saying that they/we will make a point of coming after you in the next game, that is wrong, all I am saying if you piss a guy off enough with unneeded sarcasism when everything is equal in another game, way in the back of their mind they will remember this, after all we are only human.

Don't get me wrong, if you and Ruff are in another game and it is beneficial for Ruff to work with you, there is no doubt he will do it, this is only a game.

	01-09-2001 14:46									#20
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Hi guys, this is indded an interesting thread. Wonder if I should keep it as a reference into Dip psychology. Anyway,

Siro, that last letter of yours shows greatness. Really, it takes a good (wo)man to stand up and say "I was wrong". I bow to this.

Yoav, I never suggested that crossgaming should be ok. What I meant was, just like Defiant, that if one player upsets another player OUT OF GAME, it will be remembered. In the case of a player like Ruffhaus, that can be deadly. However, I was not so much refeffering to you but to Siro back then.

Randolph, as english is only my second language, I can understand what Siro meant. And I must also say that sometime what you americans write sounds pretty harsh to me. Like when you use the word b*llsh*t very often, I kind of wonder every time if this is as offensive in english as it would be in german. Perhaps there really are misunderstandings here between players from various countries more often the we think. Thing is, itīs hard to predict the *emotional* reactions of letters that you write in an foreign language.

	02-09-2001 00:38									#21
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Siro, ROFLMAO!
You did not anticipate my attack; I coordinated it with you!

El Awrence:

And finally Ruff: Of course I did not stab you BECAUSE of your move to the North Sea. Obviously I was planning to do this SOMETIMES. I was only thinking of whether or not I should do this this year - or the next one. You moving the way you did only made brang it earlier.
And.. I couln't use another unit on Munich. If I had, Orange would have retreated to Kiel.

And to all: I just said what I have because of some things I've seen happenin previous games, where guys decided war on ap layer before they even knew what country they are going to play. And that's unfair.

Anyway.. I hope I'll manage to keep 17 SC's... please don't take that away from me? Ruff, it's better for you if we have a draw, rather than Siro getting a whole point. Think of it...

	02-09-2001 03:09									#22
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Yoav, if you wanted a draw, then you should have voted for the one on the table. I have played this position with honor and commitment to the game in an effort to stop a solo. If I wanted to see a solo in the game I would have just let Siro roll over me and taken my participation credit for finishing the game.

I will no longer spend HOURS coordinating moves with you for a game that does nothing for me. With the chance to thwart a solo removed (by you), I will now look for other motivation from the game. The best part of it now is that my moves are already in. And Siro and I took less than 60 seconds to decide what they would be.

The end result is the same to me... just takes less time.

	04-09-2001 04:03									#23
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quote: Originally posted by Yoav Siro, ROFLMAO! You did not anticipate my attack; I coordinated it with you!

You decided to tell me all about it but:

a) I had a hunch you would try to kill italy this turn, and then go agaisnt russia. I also told this to italy before you even approached me.

b) when you approached me for the first time I told italy aobut it again.

c) I looked at the map and saw that you can get 6 builds (I thought 5 since i thought Ruffi won't give you england) and knowing you had 12 I was alarmed. When you said 13, I was much more alarmed, and then when you got all disappointed it was only 12 it again confirmed my theory that you intended to make me believe you're helping me and want a draw, while in reality you tried to get 18 in one turn.

d) I wasn't sure you'd support my move with Ukr to Mos, so I figured it may end up damaging me (you know my moves ahead) and changed it. The support wouldn't ahve mattered since I cancelled it (by attacking warsaw).

quote: And to all: I just said what I have because of some things I've seen happenin previous games, where guys decided war on ap layer before they even knew what country they are going to play. And that's unfair.

That was when we played in RL, when we ganged up no Zack, right?

quote: Anyway.. I hope I'll manage to keep 17 SC's... please don't take that away from me? Ruff, it's better for you if we have a draw, rather than Siro getting a whole point. Think of it...

No, I think it's better for Siro to get a point.

He deserves it.




Btw, I just sent my moves ( I was sooooo busy today) and I must say, while I acted upon ruff's plan, he seems to have spent a bit too much effort into "convincing" me what the moves would be.

So, I'm currently a bit suspicious he might have done a good job "convincing" me, and still has his own ideas, but time will tell.