30-08-2001 07:59									#1
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Just got my latest Computer Games mag in the mail with Civ all over the cover.

The article tells a lot of what we've already heard, but there is some new info. For instance, (and I quote)

"When culture reaches a certain point, the radius of your borders grows by one. The first increase comes at 10 Culture points, which will probably take 10 turns at the start of the game (your palace starts generating one culture point per turn). The amount you need to grow your borders increase by a factor of 10 each time, so they won't expand again until you accumulate 100 culture points, and then after that 1,000, and then 10,000, then 100,000, at which point you win the game via a Culture Victory."

	30-08-2001 08:04									#2
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More from the CG article:

"All the Small wonders become available not from research, but from game states. For example, the Heroic Epic becomes available to build when you've made your first Leader. Ironworks is a Small Wonder, and you can build that in a city that has both Coal and Iron within its radius."

	30-08-2001 08:06									#3
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Hey thanks for that info.

	30-08-2001 08:08									#4
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So your greatest border can only be 4 squares in every direction from a city (5 if you play past the victory, which I always do)? Sounds good, I suppose. I just hope that is the same for sea squares, too. It really pissed me off in SMAC when I would put 2 coastal cities.

	30-08-2001 08:09									#5
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What does all this mean about Small Wonders? Does this mean that there are now small wonders, minor wonders, and major wonders?

With the lack of expansion on your borders being available maybe colonies might be more useful that what I originally thought. Although, I still believe that it won't be very useful to build a colony in the very early stages of the game.

	30-08-2001 08:18									#6
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The only other things in the CG article I haven't seen elsewhere:

Specifics about city defections:
"For it to happen at all, a city has to have a square inside its radius that's owned by somebody else. One that happens there's a whole series of checks to see if it actually converts, and it has to do with type of government, the strength of your culture, military units that are close by...all sorts of stuff."

A tidbit about Domination Victory:
"'Right now it's two thirds [of the world],' says Briggs. 'It was three quarters. We're trying to find a happy place , where the player knows he's won, and the game acknowledges it.'"

There's also some cool pics.

And just so Computer Games Mag doesn't sue me for quoting the article before general release, I'd like to point out that they are the greatest Computer Games Review/Preview Mag on the planet and I plan on renewing my two year old subscription again and again until I'm to feeble to handle a mouse!

	30-08-2001 08:20									#7
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quote: Originally posted by TechWins What does all this mean about Small Wonders? Does this mean that there are now small wonders, minor wonders, and major wonders?

I think small and minor wonders are probably the exact same thing. Just the author has written it differently.

	30-08-2001 08:23									#8
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quote: Originally posted by TechWins What does all this mean about Small Wonders? Does this mean that there are now small wonders, minor wonders, and major wonders?

As I understand the article, what some of us have been calling minor wonders, they are calling Small wonders. In fact, this is what Briggs calls them in the article.

	30-08-2001 08:26									#9
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quote: I think small and minor wonders are probably the exact same thing. Just the author has written it differently.

I've been lead to believe that minor wonders can be built by every civ at the most once. While major wonders are the wodners that only one civ can build. "Small" wonders don't seem to fit under either of these two categories. Therefore I think that there are now small, minor, and major wonders.

	30-08-2001 09:14									#10
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There are NOT Small, Minor, and Major wonders. Firaxis has stated the existence of TWO types of wonders. I'm certain they never said minor wonders, but someone associated "Major" with "Minor" and got you confused. Yes, these Small Wonders have special conditions for building them. But each civilization may build one of them. There is no reason to think that there are three types of wonders. That goes against everything that's been said so far.

	30-08-2001 09:17									#11
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quote: Originally posted by TechWins I think that there are now small, minor, and major wonders.

Let's nip that rumor right in the bud. Under the heading, "Small Wonder," the article says:

"Most of the Wonders of the World remain unchanged, but Small Wonders are a completely new concept. Unlike the regular Wonders of the World, which are limited to one of each type per game, Small Wonders are only limited to one per tribe."

Then the article continues with what I quoted about Small Wonders above. The article never mentions "Minor Wonders,"
and since Small fits the description, it is simply an alternate name, apparently the name they are going with.

Hope you are not disappointed, Techwins. Maybe three or more levels of wonders will be in Civ IV.

	30-08-2001 13:44									#12
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While we are on the topic of wonders, when you capture a city with a wonder in Civ 2, you get to keep the wonder. But what happens if you capture a city with a small wonder??

Would it automatically be destroyed?? Or would you be able to keep it if you havent built that particular one elsewhere, or would you be able to have a 'collection' of small wonders of each type??

"Heres my Pentagon in New York, and over there in Keiv ive got another one..."

	30-08-2001 16:40									#13
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Regarding the borders 4 squares from the city is quite far away. With a decent number of cities that means that culture will help you a lot in the domination victory. If you have small culture, you will need to conquer more cities.

I guess the small civs with a lot of culture will be able to win too. I am just wondering if you can shut down all the embassies, and quietly crawl to the culture victory, so that noone knows it is coming.

	30-08-2001 17:13									#14
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quote: When culture reaches a certain point, the radius of your borders grows by one.

If this info is correct, Firaxis has scrapped the concept of city-individual border radii that was in alpa versions of Civ3 (look at this screenshot: http://www.civfanatics.com/cgi-bin/...es/1-1-2225.jpg).

I liked the idea of city-individual radii, but maybe it was too complicated while not really improving gameplay.

	30-08-2001 17:37									#15
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I liked the city-individual borders a lot better, and realy theres no real evidence against them yet. i dont think

	30-08-2001 17:46									#16
	Culture victory, Domination Victory, and the OCC Support Apolyton, buy Galactic Civilizations

I imagine that playing with culture and domination victories on while doing an OCC would get in your way.

scenario 1: you are working your way toward your AC spaceship, you build apollo, and a few turns later win by cultural victory as your mighty city reaches cultural majesty. forget the spaceship.

scenario 2: you are building a great city, with the help of a couple of small allies nearby, when somebody conquers 2/3 of the world, rendering you and your scientific superiority irrelevant.

You could always play with one or two of those turned off, I guess.

	30-08-2001 18:24									#17
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Just to chime in here about wonders. When I was at GenCon, there was a demo. He went into the editor (which was obviously NOT a final products), and you can set cultures (when the AI has them) to build either small or regular wonders or both, or none. Only two tiers mentioned. I think he said spies cannot be built at all until you build CIA HQ, a small wonder...

	30-08-2001 19:35									#18
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For those that will not get this magazine, there are some great images of Lincoln through the ages.

(spoiler follows?) It looks like the leader's clothes and the background will both change depending on which of the four ages you will be in.

It should also be noted that the article talks about some Civ specific units that may not have been mentioned before (France?) and the exact number of cultural points needed for a win and for expansion.

	30-08-2001 20:18									#19
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France has the musketeer, I know that much...one of the reasons, combined with their attributes why France is probably going to be my nation of choice

About borders, there is no mention that this refers to the whole civilisation or just an individual city here? Well who knows...we will have to see in due course...

	30-08-2001 20:50									#20
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quote: Originally posted by Falconius And just so Computer Games Mag doesn't sue me for quoting the article before general release, I'd like to point out that they are the greatest Computer Games Review/Preview Mag on the planet and I plan on renewing my two year old subscription again and again until I'm to feeble to handle a mouse!

By the way, thanks for the info, Falconius.

	30-08-2001 21:15									#21
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quote: The amount you need to grow your borders increase by a factor of 10 each time, so they won't expand again until you accumulate 100 culture points, and then after that 1,000, and then 10,000, then 100,000, at which point you win the game via a Culture Victory.

While I donīt like it, the combination of accumulated culture points and eventual Culture Victory sounds like a reference to the whole civilization to me. Anyway, we will see ...

	31-08-2001 01:53									#22
	Re: Culture victory, Domination Victory, and the OCC Support Apolyton buy from Amazon

quote: Originally posted by Father Beast I imagine that playing with culture and domination victories on while doing an OCC would get in your way. You could always play with one or two of those turned off, I guess.

I think it will be like in SMAC where you can check off which victories you want. I'm sure that this and many more scenarios will be posted before the new year begins...

	31-08-2001 03:36									#23
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quote: Small Wonders are only limited to one per tribe."

That wasn't originally mentioned so I figure there were now minor, small, and major wonders. But this clears everything up now.

quote: I think it will be like in SMAC where you can check off which victories you want.

Of course it will be this way, just go look at some of the screenshots. Actually you only need to look at one particular screenshot.

quote: Culture Victory sounds like a reference to the whole civilization to me

I happen to disagree and hopefully I"m right because the individual city way is better on so many levels.

	31-08-2001 04:00									#24
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quote: Originally posted by lockstep While I donīt like it, the combination of accumulated culture points and eventual Culture Victory sounds like a reference to the whole civilization to me. Anyway, we will see ...

well, maybe the cities could accumulate culture points all in one place for end-game and maybe other pruposes, but i really doubt that borders are based on a collective civ-border because it make so much more sense if theyre individual city-borders that connect. To clarify, I will give an example. Say you have a great culure on one continent, and you build a small city on another continent, or maybe very far away from your capital, deep in soemone elses territory. YOu could have your 1 city stealing population from a 35 city nearby, if the 35-city wasn't very cultured, and that would make no sense at all. So, anyway, there are many other examples, as to why, but i have to go now, so i cant elaborate.

just my $0.02

	31-08-2001 06:50									#25
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The Minor Wonders look really really intriguing to me. They sound a little like a combination of Ctp2's Feats of Wonders and the Wonder of the Worlds. I especially like the idea that certain events will allow to build the Wonders and that every Civ can build them. I think they will complement the Major Wonders very well.

I wonder what "Heroic Epic" or the "IronWork" do.

	31-08-2001 07:40									#26
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quote: Originally posted by lockstep While I donīt like it, the combination of accumulated culture points and eventual Culture Victory sounds like a reference to the whole civilization to me. Anyway, we will see ...

I think that each city's border size is directly related to the amount of culture that that city produces.

Proof at http://www.civ3.com/gallery.cfm , middle right, the cultural advisor screen.
Under influence, each city has either a 3 or a 4, and ive seen ones with 0, 1 and 2 before as well...

	31-08-2001 10:12									#27
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It seems to be that each city has it's own cultural influence, in addition to a civ's total culture. I have seen screenshots showing a newly built city with no border. The border slowly expands when cutural structures are added.

	31-08-2001 10:18									#28
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The game sounds like it's getting better and better.

I wonder if we'll see any modern screen shots?

	31-08-2001 12:19									#29
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quote: Originally posted by The diplomat The Minor Wonders look really really intriguing to me. They sound a little like a combination of Ctp2's Feats of Wonders and the Wonder of the Worlds. I especially like the idea that certain events will allow to build the Wonders and that every Civ can build them. I think they will complement the Major Wonders very well. I wonder what "Heroic Epic" or the "IronWork" do.

I agree with you, Diplomat. Small wonders seems more "refreshing" than previously supposed. Good!

Just a guess:
"IronWork" can be a production enhancement (limited to that city)
while "Heroic Epic" let you produce "Civ game Box", making some content citizen happy and some unhappy after the third version of Civ you produce

No, seriusly, Epic can have effects on that city culture or on military status of unit produced (e.g. like a free "barrack")

	31-08-2001 12:26									#30
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quote: Originally posted by dainbramaged13 I liked the city-individual borders a lot better, and realy theres no real evidence against them yet. i dont think

Yes, I agree. City individual borders is a great way to reproduce the "City state to Nation" evolution, a welcomed detail on history of "borders" (or their lack of) that was well evidenced on a S.Kroeze post many months ago.