31-08-2001 00:47									#1
	12 major wonders??? Is that enough? Support Apolyton, buy Civilization: The Boardgame

The number that is being repeatedly thrown around here is that there is 12 Major Wonders, meaning each of the three major eras will have 4 wonders dedicated to it.

Let's take a look at some of the Wonders from past Civs (I'm doing all this off of the top of my head, so forgive me if some are missing)

Antiquity (9)
Colussus
Pyramids
Great Wall
Hanging Gardens
Lighthouse
Great Library
Sun Tzu's War Academy
Marco Polo's Embassy
Oracle

Middle Ages (9)
Sistine Chapel
Leo's Workshop
Shakespeare's Theatre
King Richard's Crusade
Magellan's Expedition
Adam Smith's Trading Company
Bach's Cathedral
Copernicus' Observatory
Newton's College

Modern Times (9)
Eifel Tower
Statue of Liberty
Darwin's Voyage
United Nations
Cure for Cancer
Apollo Program
Manhattan Project
SETI
Hoover Dam

I appologize if I have left a couple out, but the point is there are 27 wonders here that I have listed, with only a couple that could pass as generic minor wonders in the same vein as "Heroic Epic" or "Great Canal" (Oracle being the obvious one that comes to mind). PLUS there is talk about all sorts of new wonders in this game, such as the Tower of Babel and the Pentagon. Either the number 12 is not accurate or we are going to have to look at a lot of our favorite wonders missing the final cut.

	31-08-2001 00:57									#2
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I'll not comment on this until I know how well the concept of Minor Wonders works, and that I can't know until I have the game. So I'll get back t this issue later.
Anyway, from what I know, and think I know, 12 Major wonders will be enough.

I'll not judge before the game is released and I've played some games trying different strategies.

	31-08-2001 01:10									#3
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From what I understand, Minor Wonders will be great accomplishments of civilization that can be built once by *EACH* civilization. Some of the titles of Minor Wonders will be "Heroic Epic", "Great Canal", "Military Academy", etc.
Things like The Pyramids and The Sistine Chapel aren't really conducive to being generic Minor Wonders, thus it seems that some of our favorite wonders from past Civs are getting the ax, which is something I find rather disturbing, having never played the game of course. Perhaps it will actually work out for the best, and it is unfair to make any judgements at this point as you say Grampsky.
Nonetheless, I want my SETI and Cure for Cancer!!!!!

	31-08-2001 01:31									#4
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One minor wonder we know of is War Academy, and I think there's going to be a lot of that: genetrifying former wonders to become minor wonders. Watch Adam Smith's Trading Company become just the Trading Company, Bach's Cathedral become Great Cathedral, Copernicus' Observatory become National Observatory, and so on.

There were 28 wonders in Civ2, 32 in Civ3 (12 big, 24 small), and we've heard of a number that have no parallel with Civ2, like Internet, Heroic Epic, Grand Canal, etc.. So, even with the gentrifying, some old ones are going to have to be just plain cut, if they're sticking with the 32 limit.

I, for one, am not going to shed a tear about that just yet. Quite of few of the old wonders were historically dorky (there was no real Copernicus' Observatory, Marco Polo's Embassy, Sun Tzu's Military Academy, and a few others), and a lot of the effects weren't that inspirational (with a few exceptions, like Leonardo's Workshop). Most were plus two happiness in all your cities, free building X in all your cities, and the like. The effects of the new ones sound cooler, like Great Wall being an actual wall, Grand Canal being an actual canal, and so on.

	31-08-2001 01:47									#5
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Harlan where did you get the 32 wonder limit? I have heard something around there but your math might be a little rusty

24 + 12 = 36 not 32.

	31-08-2001 01:53									#6
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12 big + 24 small = 36 total

And to quote civfanatis.com: "Civ3 has all the Wonders in Civ2, plus a couple of new ones. Some old wonders function in new ways."

	31-08-2001 01:58									#7
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Uhhh.... duhhh... me not good math.

I heard that in some old review. I just double checked at the Civ Fanatics info page, and they have the same numbers. But looking there I see I'm wrong on another point - there's a Great Canal wonder (modelled on the Panama Canal), not a Grand Canal wonder (a la the one in China).

With 36, perhaps they will keep all or vitually all the old ones in one form or another.

	31-08-2001 02:26									#8
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Monkspider, I have to disagree on the church thing, Sistine Chapel becomes Westminster Abbey or Notre Dame etc, The Pyramids could be Stone henge or Hanging Gardens (OK that's a stretch). But the Big Temple is the same as Secret Service, Military Academy, Heroic Epic.

	31-08-2001 06:08									#9
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C'mon either there should only be 7 major wonders per age or 7 total numbers per age... it's traditional. It even goes back to the era of Greece, etc.

	31-08-2001 06:47									#10
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quote: Originally Posted by Darkcloud C'mon either there should only be 7 major wonders per age or 7 total numbers per age... it's traditional. It even goes back to the era of Greece, etc.

There are only 3 major wonders in each age. 12 major wonders divided by 4 ages equals 3. So that's more than fair.

	31-08-2001 07:30									#11
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Im willing to give up the traditional number 7 for wonders if it makes the game more fun... Besides, if you include minor wonders as well, then there is 9 wonders per age

	31-08-2001 08:54									#12
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With 12 major wonders, we can build them all ...

Personally, I've always been bothered by depictions of Copernicus' Observatory as being a modern-style observatory with a telescope. Copernicus never used a telescope. Copernicus died in 1543, and the telescope wasn't invented until about 1604.

Latest information has the small wonders not occurring in specific ages, but are instead associated with specific events. For example, Heroic Epic can be built once you get your first Leader, and Ironworks (?) can be built when you have a city with both coal and iron within its borders.

I think we should trust Firaxis to do the right thing with their revision of the Wonders concept. Sure, the concept of every civ being able to build wonders that were once exclusive might take getting used to for old-time CIV'ers, but I'm sure it will work out OK.

	31-08-2001 09:17									#13
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quote: Originally posted by lockstep And to quote civfanatis.com: "Civ3 has all the Wonders in Civ2, plus a couple of new ones. Some old wonders function in new ways."

And then they contridicted themselves by stateing that Civ 3 will only have 12 major wonders.

	31-08-2001 09:20									#14
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Civ 3 with 12 wonders will really put the race on for building a wonder, in a multiplayer situation you will proberly find that you will have to race to build the same wonder.

	31-08-2001 09:52									#15
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I am quite keen on cutting down on the number of major wonders. For example ones such as the Manhattan Project, Cure for Cancer, Universal Suffrage, Newton's College, etc., should all be minor wonders that everybody can build.

I don't want everybody can build the nuclear bomb after *I* finish the Manhattan Project, damn it

	31-08-2001 10:41									#16
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I just checked the CivFanatics page too. They confirm the 12 Major, 24 Small wonder total.

They also mention that SDI is now a Small Wonder, rather than a city improvement. Things are getting interesting...

	31-08-2001 12:11									#17
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The 'Seven Wonders of the World' is the whole point between the wonder system in the civ games... I agree with DarkCloud, it would be silly to have any number other than 7 per age - At the very least there should be a multiple of 7 wonders, even if they can't manage 7 in each age

	31-08-2001 14:12									#18
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If there is 36 wonders in total, there should be 7 wonders for each age and the rest could be stuff like 'Manhaton Project'. In the wonders of the world screen, only those 7 for each age should appear, the rest should appear as 'Achievments'.

	31-08-2001 15:31									#19
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quote: Originally posted by Alex 14 If there is 36 wonders in total, there should be 7 wonders for each age and the rest could be stuff like 'Manhaton Project'. In the wonders of the world screen, only those 7 for each age should appear, the rest should appear as 'Achievments'.

Maybe 'minor wonder' was only a working title during the alpha stage of Civ3 and they are called 'achievement' in the gold version. BTW, I think that the Heroic Epic, Fireworks etc. will also yield less points in the final score than a 'major wonder'.

quote: Originally posted by Urban Ranger I am quite keen on cutting down on the number of major wonders. For example ones such as the Manhattan Project, Cure for Cancer, Universal Suffrage, Newton's College, etc., should all be minor wonders that everybody can build.

I agree. It was never clear to me why I couldn´t build my 'Hoover Dam' just because a similar dam had been finished on another continent.

	31-08-2001 16:43									#20
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quote: Originally posted by Rhysie The 'Seven Wonders of the World' is the whole point between the wonder system in the civ games... I agree with DarkCloud, it would be silly to have any number other than 7 per age - At the very least there should be a multiple of 7 wonders, even if they can't manage 7 in each age

On a historic point of view, seven win hands down.
OTOH, we know that seven is only a "magic" number, it's not a real limit: we often chose ten - like in Top Ten lists - because our math is ten based - ten fingers and everything else

Now, if for some balancing game reason 12 main + 24 small work well I can live with it: we know there are hundred of relevant achievement in history that can be stretched to fit the "wonder" definition, but that's not the point.

Giving each a useful, and easy to reckon, game role is another bunch of problem. That's an area where it seems to me Firaxis is learning (from CTP feat of wonder, too) some good lesson, adding multiple Civ advantages (small wonder), and probably effects more tightened to the game (e.g. proper Great Wall drawn to the map, with a tangible effect on enemy movement).

This is a point I'm quite confident Firaxis will do a good job (but a demo to double check that would be better :evilgrin, so I'm only reconsidering the List of Wonders and their effects for some Scenario I was thinking in these days...

	31-08-2001 21:01									#21
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I don't see why there's a need for 7 wonders per epoch. Hanging Gardens? Oracle? Lighthouse? Bah! The Pyramids and the Great Wall, yes. The rest are pushing it.

	01-09-2001 00:45									#22
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Well, it's not Firaxis pushing it. Other than the Oracle, all those things really were called the Wonders of the Ancient World.

	01-09-2001 01:23									#23
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Here's the traditional list of the Seven Wonders of the World. This was put together by the Greeks, so they're all places that they have first-hand knowedge of (i.e. no Great Wall.)

The Pyramids of Egypt
The Hanging Gardens of Babylon
The Lighthouse of Alexandria
The Colussus of Rhodes

The Mausoleum of Halicarnassus
The Temple of Artemis at Ephesus
The Statue of Zeus at Olympus