31-08-2001 16:52									#1
	Iroquois and Zulus: Two of the 16 most important civilizations? Support Apolyton, buy Galactic Civilizations: Deluxe Edition

I just wonder, how come and Firaxis has put the Iroquois and the Zulus among the limited number of 16 civilizations?

I don't find important civilizations such as Arabs, Spanish, Portuguese, Dutch, Incans, Mayans, Assyrians, Summerians, Phoenicians, Minoans, Hittites, Celts, etc and I found the Zulus and Iroquois.

Even in Africa there were more important civilizations than the Zulus if they need to put some civ from Africa apart Egyptians.

And who was Iroquois? I've only heard they were some natives in North America if I am right.

	31-08-2001 17:04									#2
	Re: Iroquois and Zulus: Two of the 16 most important civilizations? Support Apolyton, buy GURPS/ Alpha Centauri

quote: Originally posted by Keygen I don't find important civilizations such as ...

OK, You just mad a very bad misstake.
How could you skip the Koreans from your list?
This is totally unforgiveble


Seriously
I think this discussion is going in the wrong direction somehow.
I see this as follows.
1. Civ3 Engine has two special abilities (out of six) for each nation/people
2. So choose two abilities and find a nation/people that could be described by those.
3. If several good - use other criteria. (Like how known they are etc.)

	31-08-2001 18:49									#3
	Re: Re: Iroquois and Zulus: Two of the 16 most important civilizations? Browse Apolyton AD-FREE

quote: Originally posted by Jeje2 OK, You just mad a very bad misstake. How could you skip the Koreans from your list? This is totally unforgiveble

How could I forget about the mighty Koreans!

quote: Originally posted by Jeje2 Seriously I think this discussion is going in the wrong direction somehow. I see this as follows. 1. Civ3 Engine has two special abilities (out of six) for each nation/people 2. So choose two abilities and find a nation/people that could be described by those. 3. If several good - use other criteria. (Like how known they are etc.)

Still, they could find more important civilizations with their characteristics .

	31-08-2001 19:10									#4
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Importance vs. Interest. Both the Iroquois and the Zulus take their characteristics to extremes, and represent an interesting/different take on what a culture should be like. The only culture ever to be as militarised as the Zulus were, for example, were the Spartans and they can't be included cause the greeks were already in. That basically leaves Zulus in the "extremely militaristic" slot, a slot that needs to be filled in order to make the game more interesting. Unimportant, yes, Uninteresting, no.

	31-08-2001 19:29									#5
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quote: Originally posted by Snapcase Importance vs. Interest. Both the Iroquois and the Zulus take their characteristics to extremes, and represent an interesting/different take on what a culture should be like. The only culture ever to be as militarised as the Zulus were, for example, were the Spartans and they can't be included cause the greeks were already in. That basically leaves Zulus in the "extremely militaristic" slot, a slot that needs to be filled in order to make the game more interesting. Unimportant, yes, Uninteresting, no.

What about the Mongols Snapcase instead?

I thing they hold the trophy for the most militaristic and aggressive "civilization" of all times!

	31-08-2001 20:16									#6
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quote: Originally posted by Keygen What about the Mongols Snapcase instead? I thing they hold the trophy for the most militaristic and aggressive "civilization" of all times!

Yeah but maybe their intentions were good

	31-08-2001 20:27									#7
	Re: Iroquois and Zulus: Two of the 16 most important civilizations? Support Apolyton or Terrorists Win

quote: Originally posted by Keygen I just wonder, how come and Firaxis has put the Iroquois and the Zulus among the limited number of 16 civilizations?

Check the other threads on this subject, but fair warning, do so at your own peril.

	31-08-2001 20:27									#8
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Have you ever thought that maybe Firaxis might be ignorant about civilizations from other parts of the world besides the west?

	31-08-2001 23:04									#9
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It is basically a function of geography. They needed a north american and southern african civ. Plus, you cannot over crowd europe and the middle east. As it is now the europeans are going to be on top of each other even on the largest world map.

	02-09-2001 11:09									#10
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	02-09-2001 16:55									#11
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quote: Originally posted by Swissy It is basically a function of geography. They needed a north american and southern african civ. Plus, you cannot over crowd europe and the middle east. As it is now the europeans are going to be on top of each other even on the largest world map.

So wheres that civilization representing Australia again?!?

	03-09-2001 08:03									#12
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Yeah, for example, the Babylonians pretty much encapsulate the Sumerians, Assyrians, and Akkadians, so while they were significant in certain ways they are too close to Babylon to count.

Besides, You could always create the Arab, Spanish, Portuguese, Dutch, Incan, Mayan, Assyrian, Akkadian, Sumerian, Phoenician, Minoan, Hittite, Estruscan, Celtic, etc. civilizations with the editors shipping with Civ3.

	05-09-2001 16:18									#13
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quote: Originally posted by paiktis22 Yeah but maybe their intentions were good

Indeed. They only used to cut in pieces their enemies while the Zulus after cutting them they ate them

quote: Originally posted by Swissy It is basically a function of geography. They needed a north american and southern african civ. Plus, you cannot over crowd europe and the middle east. As it is now the europeans are going to be on top of each other even on the largest world map.

Still if it was about geography they could choose more wisely.
They could chooce a better civilization south of Sahara or a better civilization for North America. Mayans or Mexicans could be more suitable than Iroquois for North America? Besides North America is already represented by the Aztecs and the Americans while South America is represented by none. Where the hell are the Incans?

quote: Originally posted by Melios Besides, You could always create the Arab, Spanish, Portuguese, Dutch, Incan, Mayan, Assyrian, Akkadian, Sumerian, Phoenician, Minoan, Hittite, Estruscan, Celtic, etc. civilizations with the editors shipping with Civ3.

I think Locutus will handle this and if not I would

	05-09-2001 19:12									#14
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quote: Originally posted by YefeiPi Have you ever thought that maybe Firaxis might be ignorant about civilizations from other parts of the world besides the west?

Not everyone is as ignorant as you claim them to be!

They picked based on some historical basis, interest, and what civs would fill a variety of civ attributes. They could have made a few different selections (i.e. mongols for the iroquis or zulus) but then there would be gaps in the Earth map. This was the problem with Civ I. Aztecs or Americans got full ride in Americas while Euroasia was filled to the brim with fighting nations.

All for all, not to bad of selections.

	05-09-2001 21:03									#15
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The Iroquois the game could do without. The third western civ should have been the Incas. Furthermore, the Zulus work in the south of Africa, but Mali or Ghana should be represented in western Africa, just to fill out the continent more.

Remember, Africa is second only to Asia in size.

	05-09-2001 21:40									#16
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* Points at the Iroquois thread ... *

Remember that, besides size, terrain also affects the chances of a civilization to prosper. That makes it hard to add jungle tribes: they would simply lag behind. The Iroquois, on the other hand, have lots of useful land with food in abundance.

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	05-09-2001 22:20									#17
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The Iroquois are from the north-eastern United States, and south-eastern Canada. The territory they dominated was largely forested and would require similar effort to convert to arable farmland in game terms as jungle. Keep in mind that the Incas supported a larger population than the Iroquois did, using advanced agricultural methods such as terracing of mountainsides.

I'm not saying that the Iroquois were never significant, I'm just saying it's unfair to shortchange the Incan civilization when North America already has the US and Aztecs.

Besides, the Incans could be very interesting, if the AI were designed to adapt to a high trade and resource situation with limited food production. Just as Polynesia would present a unique play style, so would the Andes mountain range.