02-09-2001 07:38									#1
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Yes! Its true !!! Fielding armys in Civ3 is going to be alot more difficult then we all think

You must now control resources in order to field an army. E.G., A civ Must have 3 of the following in a certain quantity to field 1 tank unit. 1 Oil Resource,1 Rubber resource, and 1 Iron Resource...just to field a tank (as I understand)! Another example, in order to make Chariots, one must have a Horses resource! And from what ive heard, 1 resource is not infinity, so if you want to build 2 tanks. If you want to field 2 tanks, you need 2 Iron,Rubber, and Oil. Tho Im not sure how abundant the resources are, im sure its not impossible.... Thus now you must find a way to get more!


My god this sounds GREAT! So any old person, CANNOT build any old unit. You just cant churn things out endlessly...They must ever expand there resource base in order to field such massive armys. Guys I really like the way firaxis designed this system!

This looks REAL good.... Tho PBEM has not been confirmed yet (atleast not that ive read)

	02-09-2001 07:45									#2
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here is where I read it (gamespot)




Firaxis is focusing much of its efforts on creating a much more dynamic and entertaining trade system than the one found in previous games. "Trade was really abstract in the two [previous Civilization] games," Briggs says. "You would build caravans and move them yourself from city to city, moving them in the right place. I thought that was cumbersome." To change all of that, Firaxis is implementing two different types of resources - luxury items and strategic resources - and depending on the strategy, a player will want to make a concerted effort to control as many resources as possible. If they don't control as many valuable resources as other civilizations then they can either take them by force or establish strong trade relations. "Suppose I have four elephants and my friend the Egyptian has no elephants - they want the elephants because they make people happy," Briggs explains. "The whole luxury slider aspect to the game has been consumed by this trade system." And it doesn't stop at elephants. As a civilization grows by expanding its road system, more and more luxury items become available, civilians are happier, and it's much easier to establish trade with lesser civilizations by offering the luxury items in exchange for a variety of things, including technology. Strategic resources are secured in the same fashion. If a player sees a resource within their territory, all they have to do is build a road to those resources and they will have immediate access to it.

But strategic resources serve a different purpose then luxury items as the type of resources a player has access to, determine the units they can build. Basically, players can't build swordsmen if they don't have access to iron, nor can they build units such as tanks if they don't have control over iron, oil, and rubber. "It becomes a real game of trying to corner the market on certain resources, so that you can be a power broker among the other civilizations," Briggs says. "If you have complete control over iron, you're the only one with swordsmen, so you can pretty much dominate." Though it may seem incredibly unfair for one civilization to have complete control over iron, there are a few ways to prevent complete domination during the course of the game. If the iron-controlling civilization wants to build tanks, they need oil, rubber, and iron, but if those other resources are controlled by two other civilizations then they must be careful. If the dominant iron civilization enters into the rubber-controlling civilization, then the oil civilization may see that as a potential threat and ally with the rubber-controlling civilization to fight off the invasion. It's also equally possible to setup trade and live in peace with the other civilizations until a suitable number of tanks are built and then start a war, but again, other civilizations can protect themselves against that by either destroying roads and cutting off supply lines of iron, or just by making smart diplomatic decisions.
Needless to say, strategic resources and luxury items are integral part of Civilization III, and they help to illustrate how various aspects of the game - such as diplomacy, war, and trade - are all intertwined.

Since so many of the new features can ignite confrontations between civilizations, diplomacy in Civilization has been made more robust to accommodate different situations. In addition to the options in the previous games, like peace treaties, acts of war, and technology exchanges, there are a number of new options to choose from in Civilization III. At the most basic diplomatic level, Civilizations can exchange luxuries, technology, and resources. There are also military alliances, mutual protection pacts, rights of passage, and options to gain information on other civilizations. "The thing about [diplomacy] is that it doesn't have to be eggs for eggs," Briggs says. "I can trade a technology and a world map for a diplomatic agreement, or for some gold and information. There is a huge number of different combinations to choose from." Interestingly, technology has more of an influence on diplomacy as well because diplomatic and trade agreements cannot be made unless a civilization has the writing skill. Individual leader personalities come into play as well, so a leader of one civilization will act different to certain diplomatic situations than others, forcing players to change their diplomatic strategy when encountering new civilizations. Advisors are incredibly helpful in Civilization III as they give players advice and access to the Civlopedia.

While some of the older features are getting overhauled, some of the new features have yet to be completely implemented - one such feature is the Great Leader unit. After a successful military campaign, some units will receive a promotion to Great Leader status, which means that a player can use them to construct a military academy, resulting in a stronger and more balanced army. Players can also use the Great Leader unit as an army itself because it's possible to group additional units within the Great Leader unit. The military side of the Great Leader unit is in place, but Firaxis is still currently debating whether or not to apply it to other areas of the civilization other then just the military. Another feature that still isn't in the game as of yet is multiplayer. Firaxis is still deciding how they want to incorporate multiplayer game, but before they do, the development team wants to make sure that Civilization's III single player mode is as good as it could possibly be. Most of the work on the visual side of Civilization III seems to be near completion.

Firaxis has made a few subtle adjustments to clean up various interfaces so that they don't break a player's connection to the game. The city management screen only takes up a small portion of the screen, keeping most of the actual game in view. Players can also queue up items in the technology-tree screens so that the menu doesn't appear after every few turns, but if necessary, it's possible to change the queue and learn different skills. As far as actual graphics are concerned, in the two years Firaxis has been working on the Civilization III, the art team has produced over 12,000 tiles to give map screens a much smoother and natural look, and now all units are in full three-dimensions, giving them much more detail and personality than they ever had in previous games. But perhaps the most impressive visuals are the new city-views that give players a detailed look at all of the different types of structures within a city

	02-09-2001 07:56									#3
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http://pc.ign.com/previews/12062.html

http://www.gamespy.com/e3/civ3/

	02-09-2001 08:08									#4
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Also just learned that resources dry up after over exploitation. This is good stuff... This is the first news thats makes me want to go out and buy it asap.

	02-09-2001 16:50									#5
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I'm copying this onto the Civ 3 forum, since it's also Civ 3 relevant.

	02-09-2001 17:01									#6
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horray
and the uk game comes out before xmas!
bit unsure ;bout resorses drying up cos from phalanx to tank iron is needed so that will have to be more abundant
does anyone know if the resorses dry up after #(say ten) uses or if you just use it alot, like 10 a turn?

	02-09-2001 17:05									#7
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If and which resources are depleted is partially random, IIRC. And if this happens, not early in the game. Your first pile of Iron isn't going to disappear before you get your 3rd city.

	02-09-2001 17:26									#8
	Re: Have you heard the news? Increase Your PM Length

quote: Originally posted by Saddam If you want to field 2 tanks, you need 2 Iron,Rubber, and Oil.

I donīt think this is correct. To cite civfanatics.com: Resources and luxuries can be shared between cities via your trade network. For example, if there is an iron tile anywhere within your borders, all of your cities that are connected to that tile via road will have access to iron.

	02-09-2001 18:28									#9
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quote: Originally posted by lockstep I donīt think this is correct. To cite civfanatics.com: Resources and luxuries can be shared between cities via your trade network. For example, if there is an iron tile anywhere within your borders, all of your cities that are connected to that tile via road will have access to iron.

Yes, all cities connected to your trade networks have access to the resource, but probably if only 1 iron is connected to your network, you could only start to build 1 swordmen in 1 city. You could only start production of another swordmen in another city when the 1st one is finished. But if that were true (I canīt be sure), how to deal with foreing commerce? if you have 1 horse resource square and you export it, could you build also horsemen?.

Anyway, all we could say now are especulations.... (but itīs funny anyway).

	02-09-2001 18:46									#10
	Re: Re: Re: Have you heard the news? Got spare money?

quote: Originally posted by Alfonsus72 if you have 1 horse resource square and you export it, could you build also horsemen?. Anyway, all we could say now are especulations.... (but itīs funny anyway).

Of course not, because you wouldn't have any horses left after exporting them.

	02-09-2001 19:24									#11
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Looking at the screenshoots there's to few resources if it worked this way (not the way Alfonsus described it).
Unless pikemen use no resources you would need two or three iron tiles per city, this means you will need something like 40 iron tiles if you want an average sized civ. (Even if they didn't you would still need more than 5 for knights alone.)
All of the screenshoots show civs that have less than 5 tiles of iron. OK they might have too little iron for their need, but then they should have to much of something else if it was distributed evenly.

Futhermore in the city management screen in the strategic resources area there is only one pile of iron and one horse, if the amount of resources were important there would probably be a little number next to the icon two show you how many you had.

This isn't evidence but I think you are able to have several swordsmen if you only control one iron resource.

Another suggestion could be that you only needed the resources to build the units not to support them. This would mean that if you had two cities but only one iron resource then only one of your cities could build swordsmen but you could still have a big army of already-built swordsmen. Like Alfonsus described it.
I don't think it will work this way though. There would still be numbers next to the resources in the city management screen if it worked this way.

I hope and suspect that if you have a resource like iron all of your cities can build iron needing units, any excess of iron can only be used for trade and if the one you use deplete.

Anyway I'm sure that if you give away your only horse to another civ, then you can't use it yourself.

	02-09-2001 19:49									#12
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Im sure its set up, 1 iron- 1 city. You cant share an Iron resource and use it for 2 cities. Atleast thats what I got out of it.

	02-09-2001 19:56									#13
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I hope that you can produce 1 iron requiring unit per turn per iron resource you control, and if you try to complete more the shields will go to the next item in the build queue until free iron is available.

	02-09-2001 20:18									#14
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I am pretty sure that Dan has said that you only need one resource to build anything with that resource. One resource = every city. You just might run out so it would be a good idea to have a backup.

Plus you can't trade a resource if you are currently using the resource in production in your cities. To trade you need multiple resources.

	02-09-2001 20:25									#15
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quote: Originally posted by tniem I am pretty sure that Dan has said that you only need one resource to build anything with that resource. One resource = every city. You just might run out so it would be a good idea to have a backup. Plus you can't trade a resource if you are currently using the resource in production in your cities. To trade you need multiple resources.

You may be right. I read loads of threads every day, and I can't remember everything I read. I just said what I hoped.

	03-09-2001 00:10									#16
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Another excerpt from civfanatics.com to support the 'one-resource-every-city'-assumption:

To access any good, you need to build a road to that good. That good must also be connected to your capitol in some way, be it by road, harbor, or airport. If the good in question lies outside of your borders, you will also need to build a colony on that square. For luxury resources, all cities connected to the trade network will automatically receive the benefit of the luxury. For resources, all networked cities should now be able to build units that require that resource.

BTW, civfanaticsīCivilization III Info Center (http://www.civfanatics.com/civ3infocenter.shtml) is quite interesting reading.

	03-09-2001 00:21									#17
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yep. and even if you have bronze linked to your capitial via road, if Antium isn't linked to it somehow, Antium can't build phalanxes.

looks like infastructure is so much more in civ 3.

you could get away with not building any roads for quite a while in civ2.

	03-09-2001 04:37									#18
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quote: Originally posted by tniem I am pretty sure that Dan has said that you only need one resource to build anything with that resource. One resource = every city. You just might run out so it would be a good idea to have a backup. Plus you can't trade a resource if you are currently using the resource in production in your cities. To trade you need multiple resources.

This IS exactly the way it works.

I hate people who are posting that have no clue as to what they are talking about, if you are "speculating" then say so, don't say "It works like this.", when you mean "I THINK it works like this"!

	03-09-2001 06:34									#19
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Re: Needing Horses for Chariots.

I agree in the early days that one might need wild horses to start with, but is it not beyond the bounds of possibility that after a few thousand years or so (and the discovery of something like "Animal Husbandry" ) that a Civ might learn how to BREED horses rather than just capture them from the wild ?

Or is this already built in to the existing Civ3 Resource model that after a time the horse resouce is no longer required to produce horse units ?

	03-09-2001 06:47									#20
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quote: Originally posted by Kestrel Re: Needing Horses for Chariots. I agree in the early days that one might need wild horses to start with, but is it not beyond the bounds of possibility that after a few thousand years or so (and the discovery of something like "Animal Husbandry" ) that a Civ might learn how to BREED horses rather than just capture them from the wild ? Or is this already built in to the existing Civ3 Resource model that after a time the horse resouce is no longer required to produce horse units ?

ask your mommy about how babies are made, sheel tell you that in order for a baby to be made you need a mommy and a dady, you dont just press a button and *poof* a baby horse is made so im pretty sure that you gona still need horses to make things that require horses (I know, stunning )...

	03-09-2001 06:53									#21
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Splangy - Thanks for your mature and erudite reply.

You are surely not suggesting that by 1,000 A.D. a Civilization will not have figured out how to breed horses ? In the real world Civs have been breeding horses for thousands of years, not merely capturing them from the wild.

In the 19th Century there were few countries still with Wild Horses and yet Horses were fundamental to the economies of most nations.

I'm merely making the point that the existing Civ3 resource model may need to evolve if it is to be in line with reality.

	04-09-2001 05:30									#22
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Damn! I lost my post!@#$%

Anyway, i was just *****ing about winning Civ3 by military victory seems to be unviable. If it is too difficult, players won't pursue it as an option, reducing it to one gigantic love-fest!

BOR-ING!

I just hope i'm wrong about this.....

	04-09-2001 05:33									#23
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b.i.t.c.h is a female dog. I wonder why they censor it??

	04-09-2001 05:56									#24
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quote: Originally posted by Lung b.i.t.c.h is a female dog. I wonder why they censor it??

So, you where 'female doging' about winning Civ3...?

	04-09-2001 06:16									#25
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The best way to get around censoring is to bold or italicize a letter in the word like so: bitch

	04-09-2001 08:22									#26
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That's good news about units being tied to resources. At least that cuts down on having to move hundreds of units

	04-09-2001 08:29									#27
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quote: Originally posted by Lung Damn! I lost my post!@#$% Anyway, i was just *****ing about winning Civ3 by military victory seems to be unviable. If it is too difficult, players won't pursue it as an option, reducing it to one gigantic love-fest! BOR-ING! I just hope i'm wrong about this.....

No lung, you will just have to learn how to deal with it. CTP is unrealistic at best. This new model means your going to have to think things through long and hard before you fire in anger at a neighbor...

Your going to need reources..

As for lovefests....well, Im sure there will always be Dictators like you and Megomanical warlords like me

I think i will enjoy Civ3. Especially a PBEM feature. I want to be one of the first to get into a PBEM. This way we can all be newbies and learn together(heh). That is normally alot funner! (wonders if 'funner' is even a word )

See you in the Civ3 PBEM world Lung

	04-09-2001 13:52									#28
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quote: ask your mommy about how babies are made, sheel tell you that in order for a baby to be made you need a mommy and a dady, you dont just press a button and *poof* a baby horse is made

Kestrel stated that you would not need wild horses if you knew how to breed horses... You would still need some initial horses, but you would not need to keep replenishing them with other wild horses, just breed more horses from your existing horse population.

And anyways, to answer the original question:
The way i think they have implemented this is that by the time breeding your own horses is feasible, your civilization is instead starting to build tanks and such... horseless carriages

In other words theres no horse-breeding.
Bastards

	04-09-2001 14:12									#29
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quote: Originally posted by Kestrel Splangy - Thanks for your mature and erudite reply. You are surely not suggesting that by 1,000 A.D. a Civilization will not have figured out how to breed horses ? In the real world Civs have been breeding horses for thousands of years, not merely capturing them from the wild. In the 19th Century there were few countries still with Wild Horses and yet Horses were fundamental to the economies of most nations. I'm merely making the point that the existing Civ3 resource model may need to evolve if it is to be in line with reality.

You need to breed them from somthing!! Do you think that horse breeding is growing them? I cant desipher what your trying to say?

	04-09-2001 15:42									#30
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Have you heard the news from the CG cover story?:

"If you trade a resource with another country, you, yourself cannot use that resource. So, if you trade horses with France you will need another horse resource square or else you will not be able to use things like Cavalry. (I'm not sure if this information is old or not. (page 50)"

This breaks the old idea of 1 resource square = infinite quantity of that resource for you and your partners.

I hope the limitation of "if you have only 1 resource square, only 1 city can be producing the resource output simoultaneously" would be also avaliable. This would made the game much more interesting and competitive and fix the "infinite units spawn". Any clues?.