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quote:
Originally posted by Imran Siddiqui
In the new Computer Games Magazine they state that the Russian unique unit is the Cossack. Does that mean that Firaxis got rid of the MIG? Or did CGN make a mistake? Which is better for Russia? Cossack or MIG? |
The Cossack were some petty tough guys in their day.
The Russian can have both, because unless they have change, we know that the game is going to have the M-4 Sherman, M-1 Abrams, and the F-15 Eagle.
The M-4 and M-1 however maybe the Default tank for every Civs.
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d_dudy
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lots of people use migs, but more countries use f-15s (unless, that is the stealth fighter, it isn't, is it?)
the ussr produced migs and sold them to their allies the same way we make fighters and sell them to our allies.
i think both should be available and the american uu should be ww2 marine or some other baddy. someone suggested aircraft carrier-good idea, the man of war is the only naval speacial unit i've heard of.
i like the cossak for russians though, mig and f-15 are too near eachother
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Harlan
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Berkeley, CA, USA
Aug 2005
time: 21:15
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I don't think the magazine is wrong about the MiG being out. I had already predicted that not appearing in another thread. I was analyzing the blank white spaces in the tech tree screenshots - its my theory that all these spaces will be filled up with something or another (though mostly less important things like resources). I noticed there was only one space for an air based special unit, right at Adv. Flight.
We can now add the MiG to other unit graphics that have been seen, yet aren't going to be in the game (for instance, the plains Indian on a horse, the Arab-eque horse rider). The question is, are these going to appear in the scenarios that come with the game, or will they be saved up for future add-ons, or released on the web, or what?
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quote:
Originally posted by d_dudy
lots of people use migs, but more countries use f-15s (unless, that is the stealth fighter, it isn't, is it?)
i think both should be available and the american uu should be ww2 marine or some other baddy. someone suggested aircraft carrier-good idea, the man of war is the only naval speacial unit i've heard of.
i like the cossak for russians though, mig and f-15 are too near eachother |
The Stealth Fighter is the F-22. The F-15 has been around since 1973.
The Aircraft Carrier has no attack herself, only the Planes that fly off the Carrier can attack.
WWII Marine not bad, however a Navy Seal, Army Green Beret/Ranger, Marine Recon/Fast Co., and/or AirFoce PerRescue would be very nice.
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Red Khan
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Kazan, Golden Horde
Mar 2001
time: 07:15
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Let me clear up something. I don't cliam to be 100% right but I'll try to clear up.
Word Cossack (Kazak if you transliterate it from Russian) is a Turkic word, meaning dare-devil, a daring fellow, as datakodin said. And also don't confuse Turkic and Turkish, the relation is the same as Slavic and Russian or Scandinavian and Norwegian. Turkic people live mostly in Central Asia (Uzbeks, Kazakh, Kyrgyz etc.), While only a few Turkic ethnic groups live in Europe (namely Turks, and both Crimerian and Kazan Tatars  ) Now, the majority of the hordes of Gengiz Khan were not ethnic Mongols, but Turlic tribes, eithr allied or forced to fight for them. And I guess that datakodin is right that Mongol scout troops were called like that. (You surely have to be daring to go on dangerous scout missions) And maybe later some tribe got specialized in it and the name stuck yp them or something like that. Anyway, there is an ethnic group named Kazakh and a country named Kazakhstan. Now forget about it. 
In 15-16 centuries, the serf system in Russia (well, not actually Russia but rather Moscow Principality, a.k.a as Moscovia) was getting more stricter (actually in 19th century it got to the same point as slavery in the USA) and a lot of peasants run away from thier landlords. They setteled down in Ukrainian sreppes, a border land loosely controled by either Crimerian Khanate or that big Polish Luthanian state (sorry, forgot it's name in English). So, at first they were actually fighting against the Moscovians authorities too, since they tried to return them back to their landlords. Of course Poles and Tatars were not quite happy with them too, and all three sides tried to use them against others, usually hiring them as mercinaries. Thus become very profficient fighters and of course daring, and that's why Crimerian Tatars called them kazak, Cossacks in English interpretation. I guess they liked the name and it stuck to them. Later on, they even formed thir own state, either independent, or as an autonomy in Poland-Luthiania (don't remember now, and too lazy to look up  ) Finally, when Moscovia changed it's politics, and stopped to prosecute runaway serfe, they became Moscow's border guars and frontiersmen. It's cossacks who actually conquired Siberia for Moscow, regular troops just followed them and founded cities and garrisons. Later (18-19 centuries) they were arranged to Cosachestvo (don't know how to exactly translate it, maybe divisions? ) according to geographical location, like Seberia, Ural, Don etc. They were a special cast in Russian society, as they were free peasants (not serfs), given their own land in exchange of military service. Kind of a leftover of feudal times. After the bolsheviks' coup (don't even try to tell me it was a revolution  ) the majority of them joined the monarchist forces, which were, as you know, defeated. Bolsheviks disbanded (I don't think that's the right term, but it's used in civilization  ) all there divisions and Stalin sent lots of them to wrk camp in Siberia. Although he remembered about them when he was in trouble during Nazi invasion and some Cossaks regiments were formed, but they were disbanded again after the victory. Today, they are trying to reestablish the tradition, but not very successfully I guess.
As for their effectivenes in battle. From the 14 to 19 centuries they were fighting against regular troops, so I don't think that their battle effectiveness is bad. At least their wide usage in army of tsarist Russia should proove it.
Oh, my!  Did I wrote all this! I really wanted to be short, but when I start explainig something I can't stop, so I just hope that you are not sleeping or browsing other thread by now. I just wanted to tell you that I wrote this from my mind, so there may be some mistakes. And sorry for my English, I usually write better at exams, but now I'm too tired to think about English grammar. I just hope it's understandable.
P.S. As for gameplay. 
I find it more apropriate to have cossack unique unit than Mig. The 18 century (that's when they started to employ cossacks in regular army) to mid 19th century was the Russia's Golden Age, imho. Saying that the USSR period was the Golden Age is like saying that WWII period was Germany's Golden Age, again imho.
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quote:
Originally posted by d_dudy
really? an aircraft CARRIER has no attack? i just thought the navy boys ran aircraft CARRIERS right up to battleships and started goin at it. |
You ask a question, I though I was giving a nice answer since some of the people on these boards do not have any military experience.
Would please explain this, since I'm 57 years old, I may not be on the uptake.
quote:
navy seal? there's like what a dozen or less members in a seal team? i can see sending navy seals up against a panzer take unit. makes sense. same with most of your other special ops units. i think only the rangers fight in the unit type numbers demonstrated by civ units. |
You might be supprise what a Seal Team can do.
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quote:
Originally posted by Red Khan
Let me clear up something. I don't cliam to be 100% right but I'll try to clear up. |
A very good post. I enjoy reading it.
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datakodin
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Russia
May 2001
time: 08:15
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quote:
Originally posted by Red Khan
Let me clear up something. I don't cliam to be 100% right but I'll try to clear up. |
quote:
Now, the majority of the hordes of Gengiz Khan were not ethnic Mongols, but Turlic tribes, eithr allied or forced to fight for them. |
BTW, the Russians do not even use the word Mongols talking about Gengiz Khan's army. We called them Tatars. Certainly now we can play Civ and learn they were Mongols
Yes, the very Mongols were a small tribe but his chieftain - now we know him as Gengiz Khan - was a brilliant military leader and diplomat. Under his rule, Mongols have conquered many of neighbouring tribes and nations and finally the great Mongol empire was established. Sure the army of that empire was highly multi-national.
quote:
In 15-16 centuries, the serf system in Russia (well, not actually Russia but rather Moscow Principality, a.k.a as Moscovia) was getting more stricter...
...Finally, when Moscovia changed it's politics, and stopped to prosecute runaway serfe, they became Moscow's border guars and frontiersmen.
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And I would like to say that Civ1 as well as Civ2 and most probably Civ3 describe Moscovia not Russia. You are first who pays attention to this subject
Also I would like to say you follow the Soviet historical books. Actually, still there are many different points of view for the history of Cossacks. Suppose how many peasants should escape from their landlords to form the strong and powerful independent state? One of point is that the Cossacks were the asian nationals finally assimilated by Russians and Ukranians.
quote:
It's cossacks who actually conquired Siberia for Moscow |
You know when you beg pardon from Russian tsar for your rubbery and raids it would be better you give him some valueable gifts. Why not Siberia?
BTW what do mean to conquer Siberia? Something as following?
1) Capture some cities
2) Sack it and kill and rape many natives
3) Be under siege by angry native warriors
4) Finally say to Russian tsar - please we are sitting in some hellish cities and we are going to die. What about if Your Majesty will send his troops to save us? And by the way Your Majesty could join these cities to his mighty empire, we have nothing against.
quote:
As for their effectivenes in battle. From the 14 to 19 centuries they were fighting against regular troops, so I don't think that their battle effectiveness is bad. At least their wide usage in army of tsarist Russia should proove it.
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Just one example. Year 1812 AD, Napoleon attacks Russian army in Borodino near to Moscow. The battle is really heavy. Napoleon sends most of his troops forward. He and his high-rank officers are quite undefended. Russians send a Cossack team to capture Napoleon...
Do you want to know what finally happened? The Cossack leader ataman Platov was so drunk as a piper, sorry for my English that he just dropped from his horse. French army captured Moscow.
quote:
Bolsheviks disbanded (I don't think that's the right term, but it's used in civilization ) all there divisions and Stalin sent lots of them to wrk camp in Siberia.
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The Russian tsar has used Cossacks as the repressive force against the revolutionists. They were policemen not soldjers. Does anybody like policemen here?
quote:
P.S. As for gameplay.
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I agree with you. But this is another story
Last edited by datakodin on 07-09-2001 at 16:08
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Red Khan
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Kazan, Golden Horde
Mar 2001
time: 07:15
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quote:
Originally posted by joseph1944
A very good post. I enjoy reading it. |
Thank you. But I had a look at it again, and the number of typos is reallly astonishing. I was just too tired to pay attention, but still wanted to show off as a history buff.
quote:
Originally posted by datakodin
BTW, the Russians do not even use the word Mongols talking about Gengiz Khan's army. We called them Tatars. |
Well, to be exactly, they are called Mongol-Tatars in soviet history books. Here is the story behind it. Tatars were one of the tribes that lived in the steppes of Mongolia (not sure if they were Mongol or Tukic) and during one of the quarells they killed Ghengiz Khan's father, so he oathed to revenge them. When he become the ruler of Mongolia and started his conquest, he made Tatars to stand in the first ranks during the battle, so more of them get killed. That's why thier name is as famous as those of the Mongols. After that, Russians started to use the word as generalized name of turkic nomads and people who lived in Golden Horde, and that's why it stuck to them. But in fact, people of Golden Horde were mainly Kipchak and Volga Bulgars, Mongols being only the elite, and of course after a century or so, they become assimilated. And of course no Tatars at all, 'cause they were all killed.
And btw, new Russian history books say just Mongols, not Mongol-Tatars, for the purpose of political corectness.
quote:
And I would like to say that Civ1 as well as Civ2 and most probably Civ3 describe Moscovia not Russia. You are first who pays attention to this subject |
Thanks. As far as I know, the official name was Principality of Moscow, until Peter I renamed it to Russian Empire.
quote:
Also I would like to say you follow the Soviet historical books. Actually, still there are many different points of view for the history of Cossacks. Suppose how many peasants should escape from their landlords to form the strong and powerful independent state? One of point is that the Cossacks were the asian nationals finally assimilated by Russians and Ukranians. |
Well, that's the books I read. I just don't have enough time now to read the new ones. Maybe the truth lies somewhere in between? I guess cossacks is mix of people, who runed away from wars between khanates of former Golden Horde, the native slavs of the region (were the y called Ukranians at this time? I don't know) and runaway serfs from Moscovia.
quote:
You know when you beg pardon from Russian tsar for your rubbery and raids it would be better you give him some valueable gifts. Why not Siberia?
BTW what do mean to conquer Siberia? Something as following?
1) Capture some cities
2) Sack it and kill and rape many natives
3) Be under siege by angry native warriors
4) Finally say to Russian tsar - please we are sitting in some hellish cities and we are going to die. What about if Your Majesty will send his troops to save us? And by the way Your Majesty could join these cities to his mighty empire, we have nothing against. |
This is too funny. I guess it was the case most of times. But you have to agree that Tsar's troops just had to go and defend these cities (which wasn't very difficult for regular troops), without having to take losses taking them. I wish somebody did that for me in civ2.
Well maybe he just drink some vodka to be more brave. And I guess there are many other examples like in the history of Russia, cossacks not even getting envolved.
But I recall that some general of the Thirty Years war, saying that cossack mercinariesis is the best infantry. Maybe they spoiled after joining Russian army?
quote:
The Russian tsar has used Cossacks as the repressive force against the revolutionists |
That's because they were one of the few social groups (and parts of the army) that remained fully loyal to Tsar at that time.
quote:
Does anybody like policemen here? |
Not probably you or me, but remember that there are a lot Westerners around here.
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Phutnote
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the HIND attack helicopter would make another nice choice for the Russians: it would correspond with their golden age after wwii when they were a superpower, and it would be different enough from the American F-15.
the helicopter in the game now looks like a transport, and if I remember correctly, from one of the video screenshots, there is an air unit that carries troops but has no combat ability. That might be the helicopter.
Phutnote
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Blaupanzer
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Fairfax, VA
Oct 2000
time: 00:15
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The cossacks made excellent scouts. They came from military faemers as discussed above, although I doubt the entire Don cossack horde was born from peasants fleeing Muskova. The Don, Ural, and some later settlers were composed of personnel who literally traded military service to the state for land, reduced taxes, and a degree of autonomy. People labeled as "cossacks" during the Napoleonic wars included Kirghiz, Bashkiri, Circasian, Turkmen, and others. Such people had also accompanied Genghiz Khan in his conquering of Eastern Europe and Persia. I've not seen any sources that labeled them as "cossacks" or "Kazaks" at that time.
The cossack special unit could be a kind of faster dragoon that would correspond to the rise of Russia under Peter the Great and his successors.
Some of us admire the Russians as a people, but jerks are always lurking about with leftover jokes from the Cold War era. Ignore them.
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Sun Zi 36
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OK, when some people said the MIG is too similar to F-15 and that they probably come out from the same tech and require the same special resources, they have forgotten something. Firstly, the Indian and Chinese unique units both becomes available with the tech that allows building the Knight. Second, the Persian and Roman UUs both come out of the tech that gives us swordsmen AND they both require iron to be built.
So, why say the MIG and the F15 is too similar when nobody complained about the Legion and the Immortals being too similar?
My opinion for the change to the cossacks is that it would trigger the golden age for Russia too early. The Russian golden age, historically, as everyone should agree, is in the second half of the 1900s during the cold war.
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03-09-2001 01:37
No attack or defence but the price of spaceship construction should be halved.
sweet new smilies
What's the reason of your negative attitude to Russians? Did they ever do something bad to you, people?
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