04-09-2001 13:30									#1
	Ahh - I can't built any units! Support Apolyton buy from Amazon

Scenario:
I just discovered gunpowder, so all my medieval units gets obsolete and I can't built them anymore.
Until the discovery of gunpowder all salpetre resources on the map were hidden, so I didn't know where they were.
Now, I find that they all lie out of my reach. My opponents haven't made the discovery yet, so I can't trade the resource from them either.
While I travel around the world beginning to construct distant colonies and connect them to my cities. Meanwhile my enemies continue to launch armies of knights and catapults against my cities. But I - Ahh - I can't built any units!!

Any comments?

	04-09-2001 13:40									#2
	hmmmm... Increase Your PM Length

Sounds highly hypothetical.
If you find that no apprpriate resources are available at that very moment, you might consider the fact that you haven't expanded enough.

However, I guess such resources will be higly available, otherwise the gameplay would be affected to much and I think Firaxis wouldn't let that happen.

But indeed, theoretically it seems possible.

Grtx.

	04-09-2001 13:41									#3
	Support Apolyton

that happened on civII, cos u had all these fighty legions then gunpowder makes them rubbish and you have to backtrack to knights for good atacking.
thats rubbish, in 17th C or whatever when guns came knights were gone!

	04-09-2001 13:46									#4
	not really... Support Apolyton, buy Civilization 2

Well, actually gunpowder was found in Europe already somewhere around 1300 AD.

Check this out:
Gunpowder at encarta

Grtx

	04-09-2001 14:27									#5
	Tired of ads?

Too hypothetical? I guess it could be!

But let's say the salpetre tiles do lie inside your farflung empire, but you are unlucky - you haven't roaded those tiles!
It will still take a few turns before you do. These turns might prove fatal to newly found cities and cities under siege which are unable to build pikemen or musketmen.

I do hope fireaxis has solved this by establishing a new obsolete system. One where you can always build an older unit if you suddenly are unable to build the newest.

	04-09-2001 14:29									#6
	Support Apolyton, buy Galactic Civilizations

I doubt that the discovery will obsolete ALL the military units you can build... If it did, then Firaxis would have already come across the scenario that you have suggested and fixed it up.

	04-09-2001 14:39									#7
	When are resources visible? Support Apolyton, buy Call to Power 2

I thought of another question!

If another civilization discovers gunpowder before you will you then be able to see the salpetre tiles?

It would make sense if you would. Because eventhough you don't know what to use it for, you should still be able to sell the stuff to you rivals.
"Hey I don't know what this **** is, but if he's foolish enough to pay me, I'm gonna mine it!"
Maybe he would get it cheaper from you, if you didn't know what it was.

	05-09-2001 00:02									#8
	Support Apolyton, buy Civilization: The Boardgame

This problem could happen in Imperialism II.

e.g. if you discovered "Early Rifles" you could no longer build calivermen but had to build skirmishers as light infantry. Skirmishers are better than calivermen, but they take steel instead of bronze Some other types went from iron to steel. If you did not mine coal yet or had not discovered "Crucible Process" you could not produce steel.
Took me quite some time to find out what happened and how to prevent this kind of problem.

I agree with Skanky Burns that this will not be the case in Civ3, otherwise they would have met the problem yet. Ofcourse it could happen that you do not have salpeter, so you can not built any musketeers, so find it, trade it or conquer it.

Fiil, I understand that as long you did not invent a technology that you cannot see the resource. Ofcourse your neighbour could tell you, and give you the technology for free, thank you. Probably they will not tell you. Or perhaps they walk around your territory and suddenly attack your very small uninteresting part of the world which you never seriously developed, because there was nothing of interest there. A more peaceloving Civ would propose you to trade a larger city for a smaller city of you which would have access to the resource, which you do not yet know about. I hope the AI will try to outsmart the player.

	05-09-2001 00:12									#9
	Avatar Enlargement: We've got the solution

I hope that units don't get obsolete until you can build the next unit, and if you cant build it again, you shall get back the ability of building older units.

	05-09-2001 00:38									#10
	Full PM-box? Change here!

Firaxis alread said that resources will be more then plentiful on the map.

what would musketeers require to build? iron? im pretty sure everyone will have iron working if you have gunpowder.

::crosses fingers::

[EDIT] I dont think that "gunpowder" is a resource on the map. i may be wrong.

	05-09-2001 00:42									#11
	Help yourself to an AD-FREE life

quote: Originally posted by Fiil Too hypothetical? I guess it could be! But let's say the salpetre tiles do lie inside your farflung empire, but you are unlucky - you haven't roaded those tiles! It will still take a few turns before you do. These turns might prove fatal to newly found cities and cities under siege which are unable to build pikemen or musketmen. I do hope fireaxis has solved this by establishing a new obsolete system. One where you can always build an older unit if you suddenly are unable to build the newest.

Oh don't be such a wimp!!! Adapt and overcome!
-seize some from your neighbors
-trade for it
-avoid war for a couple turns
-grow some guts...dont' expect the game to be so easy

	05-09-2001 00:45									#12
	Tired of ads?

quote: Originally posted by Fiil Too hypothetical? I guess it could be! But let's say the salpetre tiles do lie inside your farflung empire, but you are unlucky - you haven't roaded those tiles! It will still take a few turns before you do. These turns might prove fatal to newly found cities and cities under siege which are unable to build pikemen or musketmen. I do hope fireaxis has solved this by establishing a new obsolete system. One where you can always build an older unit if you suddenly are unable to build the newest.

Don't be such a wimp! Road to the squares and deal with the situation while doing so.

	05-09-2001 01:21									#13
	Support Apolyton, pre-order Civilization IV

GP, what kind of double post is that? Answering the same quote with two different formulations, but with the same point. I think you have made a mistake.

UberKruX,
You are probably right, but what if someone creates a map without a specific resource? Will the units be obsolete anyway, or will they stay available until the next level is reached?

	05-09-2001 01:32									#14
	Lose 30 kilos (of popups)

interesting proposal gramphos.

a world without oil.

i honestly dont know the answer now.

SPAM THE CIV TEAM!

	05-09-2001 01:56									#15
	Support Apolyton, buy Civilization III: Complete

quote: Originally posted by GP Oh don't be such a wimp!!! Adapt and overcome! -seize some from your neighbors -trade for it -avoid war for a couple turns -grow some guts...dont' expect the game to be so easy

Here, here! I totally agree.

I for one hope there are at least occasional situations where you do have resource emergencies. And if the game doesn't generate them, then I plan on creating scenarios that do (I'm sure others will, too).

This is going to be freaking great! Some of you seem to be worried that this is so different from Civ II. That's a good thing. This ain't your father's Civilization: It's Civ III !!!

	05-09-2001 02:04									#16
	Tired of ads?

Yeah, this will be a great challenge. No new rsources, no new units. My vote would be that the old units remain avalaible, but I think this is going to be good for those of us in sore need for a challenge.

	05-09-2001 02:34									#17
	Re: Ahh - I can't built any units! Lose 30 kilos (of popups)

quote: Originally posted by Fiil Scenario: I just discovered gunpowder, so all my medieval units gets obsolete and I can't built them anymore. Until the discovery of gunpowder all salpetre resources on the map were hidden, so I didn't know where they were. Now, I find that they all lie out of my reach. My opponents haven't made the discovery yet, so I can't trade the resource from them either. While I travel around the world beginning to construct distant colonies and connect them to my cities. Meanwhile my enemies continue to launch armies of knights and catapults against my cities. But I - Ahh - I can't built any units!! Any comments?

I see 3 solutions:
1) Give the tech of gunpowder to your neighbor that has the ressource you need. Once they have the tech, they will see the resource and be able to trade with you.

Now if you worried that they won't trade, and you are nervous about giving them a tech as big as "gunpowder", then go with option #2 or #3:
2)Wait until they discover "gunpowder" all by themselves then try to trade with them!
or,
3) Take it by force!!

The fact is that the new ressource model adds a lot of really cool new situations and strategies in civ3!

	05-09-2001 02:35									#18
	Enter the AD-FREE zone

resource emergencies will rule.

embargos are able to be applied now, so peaceful player can smack around aggressors by building a network of civs that refuse to trade with them.

QUESTION: it has been said that pillaging roads can cut off a city from getting a resource. is there a similiar thing for air/sea trade routes (possible via harbors / airports)?

if there are enemy fighters in the way, or a large naval fleet between two cities, is there a chance the city will be denied oil?

	05-09-2001 03:25									#19
	Re: not really... Support Apolyton, buy GURPS/ Alpha Centauri

quote: Originally posted by tuckson Well, actually gunpowder was found in Europe already somewhere around 1300 AD. Check this out: Gunpowder at encarta Grtx

The chinese were making fireworks years ago with a Gunpowder mixture. Like everything else, the Euro's found out and claimed they invented the thing.

	05-09-2001 04:15									#20
	Re: Re: not really... Inflate your Upload Space

quote: Originally posted by Saddam The chinese were making fireworks years ago with a Gunpowder mixture. Like everything else, the Euro's found out and claimed they invented the thing.

Dont worry, the site Tuckson quoted stated that gunpower was used in China centuries before it appeared in Europe.

	05-09-2001 05:03									#21
	Full PM-box? Change here!

quote: Originally posted by Skanky Burns I doubt that the discovery will obsolete ALL the military units you can build... If it did, then Firaxis would have already come across the scenario that you have suggested and fixed it up.

It is worth noting that the original CtP obsoleted units instantly upon being able to build new units, but quickly changed it in a patch so that the most recent obsolete unit could still be built. I can't imagine Firaxis making the same mistake, especially considering the need to have special resources. I'm gonna look real stupid if they do

	05-09-2001 05:27									#22
	Put an end to popups!

I see my saltpetre theory has been adopted by many

Yeah, I wonder what will be the status on acquiring resources from other nations when they do not possess the technology to extract it. Perhaps a resource becomes visible for all when the first nation discovers the appropriate tech

	05-09-2001 06:09									#23
	Support Apolyton or Terrorists Win

quote: Originally posted by Tventano Fiil, I understand that as long you did not invent a technology that you cannot see the resource. Ofcourse your neighbour could tell you, and give you the technology for free, thank you. Probably they will not tell you. Or perhaps they walk around your territory and suddenly attack your very small uninteresting part of the world which you never seriously developed, because there was nothing of interest there. A more peaceloving Civ would propose you to trade a larger city for a smaller city of you which would have access to the resource, which you do not yet know about. I hope the AI will try to outsmart the player.

Ha, ha I hope you're right on this one Tventano - It would indeed be fun to be outsmarted by the AI Maybe I will even quote Homer Simpson: Dohh, when this happens.

Actually I'm hoping civ3 will be a bigger challenge than civ2. And I'm confident that I will adapt to any new game concepts. So I guess you got me all wrong on that one GP.
The fact is that eventhough we've been told a bit about the new resource system we don't know it all. These new rules have consequences on other game aspects and how these are handled we don't know. I was just raising a question to find out, if anyone had a good idea, how one of these questions would be solved.

Generally I think you should never get a kind of penalty when you are the first to discover a new technology. This is why I'm hoping that fireaxis has made some adjustments from civ2. Not because I'm a whimp! But because I think this will make a some of you guys develop strange strategies.
Here's an example:
In civ2 I sometimes wanna invent espionage prior to automobile if I have leo's workshop.
I think that trying to avoid some new technologies because they will make something you use obsolete is completely unrealistic and 'unciv' (there, I said it), and I try to avoid it.

The new rules for resources also affect this, because maybe I still want to be able to produce defensive units after I get gunpowder (or something similar), eventhough I haven't got the required resource. I don't want to get the 'Dohh' feeling when I make a new discovery - I should be excited!

As you might have guessed I also hope that no wonder effects gets obsolete anymore. Which I think could happen now that they're making a lot of changes with the wonders.

quote: Originally posted by UberKruX QUESTION: it has been said that pillaging roads can cut off a city from getting a resource. is there a similiar thing for air/sea trade routes (possible via harbors / airports)?

These are the questions I like! Makes you wonder what the answer will be and gets you even more excited to get the game!!

	05-09-2001 09:26									#24
	Put an end to popups!

quote: Oh don't be such a wimp!!! Adapt and overcome!

And this from a guy who can't adapt to Civ III being so different from Civ II.

	05-09-2001 13:19									#25
	Re: Re: not really... Avatar Enlargement: We've got the solution

quote: Originally posted by Saddam The chinese were making fireworks years ago with a Gunpowder mixture. Like everything else, the Euro's found out and claimed they invented the thing.

Did I say they did not? If you read the article I referred to carefully you would have read that it's in there to. However, the bloodthirsty Euro's were the ones who actually made firearms with them while the chinese peacefully used the gunpowder for fireworks.

Why do some non euro's always seem to pick on Euro's? Maybe still a bit of envy for not being one?

	05-09-2001 21:08									#26
	Lose 30 kilos (of popups)

sorry, but i dont know now to do smileys?
what my post was trying to say is like what fiil said, you dont want to research some new tech because its worse. thats stupid. i think they kind of avoided that in SMAC and i hope its the changed in civIII so its fixed

	05-09-2001 21:18									#27
	Support Apolyton or Terrorists Win

quote: Originally posted by tishco sorry, but i dont know now to do smileys?

Check out this for info on smilies. Also note that any standard smileis as the :) will do and :( will do and ;) will do .

	05-09-2001 23:29									#28
	Support Apolyton, buy Alpha Centauri

Is gunpowder a known resource in Civ3? There's been no mention of a gunpowder resource. Specifically, Firaxis has mentioned tanks require steel, rubber, and oil. Yet no mention of gunpowder (can't shoot shells without gunpowder or similar explosives). I think the Civ3 resources are pretty generic, with the exception of uranium, such that you won't stop all production based on the lack of one resource.

	06-09-2001 01:29									#29
	Enter the AD-FREE zone

How id Fiil discover gunpowder if he doesn't have any saltpeter?


Okay, it is an interesting question. Presumably, you could be an island civ and discover horseback riding, but have no horses on your island.

If the programmers were really smart, they would have resource stem-cell tiles, that become the resource you just discovered!

quote: It would make sense if you would. Because eventhough you don't know what to use it for, you should still be able to sell the stuff to you rivals.

This has happened often, most interestingly when certain central african tribes would trade for salt, offering up an equal weight of some useless soft, shiny yellow metal that you could find laying around, but the funny white people couldn't seem to get enough of.

	06-09-2001 02:04									#30
	Re: Re: Re: not really... Tired of ads?

quote: Originally posted by tuckson Why do some non euro's always seem to pick on Euro's? Maybe still a bit of envy for not being one?

Sounds like the same reason Euros pick on Americans