10-02-2001 03:44									#1
	The Lone Engineer at Work (started by Gastrifidis, stolen by SlowThinker) Suffering from ads?

I think that this post need a separate thread:

originally posted by
Gastrifitis
Settler
Waterloo, IA, US
Feb 2001
to Civ2-Strategy: Apolyton's "Great Library" (Page 3)

posted February 08, 2001 13:40

Hi!
I can't believe I've been playing Civ since the original came out, and didn't know about this site. This is a fantasy camp. I've been reading until my eyes blistered, mostly off this topic. Now I have lots of plans for playing the game in ways that never interested me before, or I didn't know about. In the spirit of contributing, I've expanded on something mentioned in one of the threads, and added analysis. Maybe it will be useful in the recommended Civ II FAQ. I hope this is based off of the original rules.txt file; make changes as necessary.

*** The Lone Engineer at Work***

This is a listing of all the times required for a single Engineer to complete a given task. Settlers would take approximately twice as long for the tasks they can compete. In each case, time is measured from the turn you give the Engineer orders to the next turn the Engineer can receive instructions. So, if you tell an Engineer to build a road on grassland, the road will be done instantly. But the Engineer cannot take further orders until next turn; it takes one turn of the Engineer's life to complete the task.

TURNS TASK

1* Build a road on grassland/plains/desert/tundra
2* Build a road on forest/hills/swamp/jungle/glacier
3* Build a road on a mountain

2* Build a railroad on grassland/plains/desert/tundra
4* Build a railroad on forest/hills/swamp/jungle/glacier
6* Build a railroad on a mountain

* Building roads or railroads on squares with a river always takes one extra turn.

3 Irrigate/farmland grassland/plains/desert
5 Irrigate/farmland tundra/hills

3 Clear a forest (plains)
8 Clear a swamp/jungle (grassland)

5 Reforest grassland
8 Reforest plains/swamp/jungle

3 Mine a desert
5 Mine hills/mountain
8 Mine a glacier

10 Transform grassland/plains/desert/tundra (to hills/grassland/plains/desert)
20 Transform forest/hills/swamp/jungle/glacier (to grassland/plains/plains/plains/tundra)
30 Transform mountain (to hills)

2 Clear pollution/build fortress/build airbase on any square

Now, what do we learn from this? Well, let's say you have a forest square and you want it to be grassland. The Transform command will get you there--in a mere 20 turns. On the other hand, you could clear the forest, then transform the plains. If you do, you'll save 7 turns. Or let's say you have a fruit (jungle) square and want to make it a wheat (plains) square. Again, the Transform command takes 20 turns. But if you reforest the jungle (silk), then clear the forest, you get the wheat square 9 turns faster.

Obviously, some Transform commands are relatively worthless. But the timing for transformation seems to be based on the movement penalty for a square. Probably not worth changing. However, by going into the rules.txt file, you could change the results of the transform command. For example, you could make forests transform to mountain squares (gold!), or make jungle squares transform to desert (the Sahara is coming!). You can even make squares transform to ocean and back. Such a command would cost an Engineer or a ship every time it was carried out, but might be worth it anyway. If you don't feel like changing the rules.txt file, just remember that the direct route isn't always the best one when it comes to transforming.

	10-02-2001 03:46									#2
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Ok:
I will post my tests too:

*** The Lone Settler at Work***

In each case, time is measured from the turn you give the Settler orders to the next turn the Settler can receive instructions. So, if you tell an Settler to build a road on grassland, the road will be done in 1 turn. But the Settler cannot take further orders until next turn; it takes one turn of the Settlers's life to complete the task.

Notes:
1. Settler can't interrupt his work immediately. If you click him, then he will be available next turn. You should (re)set the order and then click him every turn if you want to be able to move him anytime if needed (IMHO settler's work won't be lost).

2. If you break the work, the settler "brings" his undergone turns of work to a new working square.

3. Up to three settlers may work on one square simultaneously.

TURNS TASK

2* Build a road on grassland/plains/desert/tundra
4* Build a road on forest/hills/swamp/jungle/glacier
6* Build a road on a mountain

?* Build a railroad on grassland/plains/desert/tundra
?* Build a railroad on forest/hills/swamp/jungle/glacier
?* Build a railroad on a mountain

3* Build a fortress on grassland/plains/desert/tundra
4* Build a fortress on other squares

* I didn't do any test on a river. I don't know if "Building roads or railroads on squares with a river takes one extra turn".

5 Irrigate grassland?/plains?/desert? (i didn't write down what I irrigated exactly)

10 Mine hills
[This message has been edited by SlowThinker (edited February 14, 2001).]

	10-02-2001 04:54									#3
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Thank you SlowThinker - this did need a thread of its own.

Our two ha'p'orth - only two Settlers/Engineers can normally act on a single square - however, Xin has (amongst his many wise offerings to this forum) demonstrated that you can, by careful micromanagement) get as many active Engineer type units working full belt upon any one square as you like - given a little more time I could dig out a reference, but I fear at this moment our time is limited - I have a curfew (SG[1]) my lady will tear off my bits if I am too late!
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	10-02-2001 09:27									#4
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Not sure about everything that was posted, but I believe farmland upgrades only require 2 turns to complete for engineers.

Another thing to note is that settlers actually take 3 turns to complete a road (grassland, etc.), because it must 1st move onto the square where the road will be placed. Sometimes it will even require 4 turns if the settler uses fractional points to attempt to move onto the square. Since engineers have a move of 2 they WILL get onto the square if adjacent or using up to 2/3rds movement. Then they can still complete the task, even with solely 1/3rd move left. Course you knew that already, but I still find it interesting how much of an upgrade engineers truly are over settlers.

	10-02-2001 21:33									#9
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THEFT! I shall board my galleons and plunder your cities!

Just kidding. This was a good idea. I forgot to include the tip about Settlers and Engineers working together because I always make sure to get Leo's Shop, it's a number one priority for me. So I never have Settlers and Engineers working together unless I bribe a Settler. But yes, irrigation takes 2 and a half turns for an Engineer. Clearing a swamp takes 7 and a half turns, but who builds a road there first anyway?

	10-02-2001 23:57									#10
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I am waiting. Not kidding.


I am still waiting who will steal "my concept" of thread Info: diplomat and spies.
Gastrifitis, don't you want to pick all information concerning this topic (i think Scouse Gits will post some link yet) and to build and update some tabular/synoptic post?

	11-02-2001 20:51									#12
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Theben,
do you take into consideration following Gastrifidis's assumption?

quote: In each case, time is measured from the turn you give the Engineer orders to the next turn the Engineer can receive instructions. So, if you tell an Engineer to build a road on grassland, the road will be done instantly. But the Engineer cannot take further orders until next turn; it takes one turn of the Engineer's life to complete the task.

	12-02-2001 10:29									#13
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OK, let's put some things in order.

First of all, I really was just kidding about the theft. I was incredibly pleased to see my little contribution get its own thread started by someone else. I'm sure a discussion about diplomats and spies deserves to be treated similarly.

Second, I ignored arrival time on purpose. The idea behind my post originally was to explore getting from A to B in terrain type, (forest to grassland) and compare one-step to two-step processes. For this explanation, I needed to focus on what happened after the Engineer got there, not how long it took to arrive. But, obviously, arrival time can eat an Engineer's life too.

Last, I should explain how I got my info. I created a map with an array of each terrain type, enough of each to test each thing you can do to a square (I thought). Then I started a game on it, and turned on cheat. I gave myself each Engineer technology, then put an Engineer on each square, and roads and pollution as necessary. ( I had to stagger pollution, or terrain would have changed.) Then I put them to work, and observed how many turns it took from 4000 BC. The only thing I forgot to do was farmland; I thought I remembered it took as long as irrigation. But Theben may be right, maybe it takes 2 turns. I'll have to retest. If you want to try this, you don't have to do so many river squares; I'm positive that only roads and railroads are affected.

	11-02-2001 23:54									#14
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I'm 99% certain that farmland takes 3 turns for an engineer and there is no difference between rivered and unrivered terrain.

	12-02-2001 01:57									#15
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It has been my thought that barring Xin's micromanagement technique, only two engineers or two settlers can be effectively be used to speed up a task. More does not help. True?
Also, the work seems to accumulate in the unit, not on the land. If a settler is irrigating land, and I interrupt to move him to safety for a few turns to avoid a barbarian attack, then he will complete the task as soon as he is returned. This technique can be used to build a fortress in one turn.

	12-02-2001 03:21									#16
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Gastrifitis,

quote: First of all, I really was just kidding about the theft. I was incredibly pleased to see my little contribution get its own thread started by someone else. I'm sure a discussion about diplomats and spies deserves to be treated similarly.

I really don't know who is/was kidding.
I swear I talk seriously now: I was kidding when I declared I wasn't kidding.

About dips/spies:
My weak english is often confusing. I just wanted to say that it would be commendable if you would arrange results (or partial results) of this thread into some tabular form (for example, something like my dip/spy thread).

quote: Second, I ignored arrival time on purpose. ...

I my tests, I counted "net" time of work: I counted the turn I gave order and I didn't count the turn settler was free (blinking).
I suppose you too (?).

geofelt,

quote: Also, the work seems to accumulate in the unit, not on the land.

I agree. I would skip "seems" yet.

Do you have a link to Xin's work?
[This message has been edited by SlowThinker (edited February 11, 2001).]

	14-02-2001 10:34									#17
	Remove this text

Right, five settler turns or 2.5 (3) engineer turns to upgrade to farmland.

Right, normally only two units can work a square productively at once (although the game won't tell you you're wasting your time by adding more).

SlowThinker, your English may not be perfect, but your thinking appears to be excellent. If anyone complains, tell 'em you'll only accept complaints in Czech.

	15-02-2001 01:32									#18
	Remove this text

The amount of time required to irrigate or mine any given terrain square is listed in the @TERRAIN section of the rules.txt file.

Desert: Irrigate 5 turns, Mine 5 tuns
Plains: Irrigate 5 turns, Change to Forest 15 turns
Grassland: Irrigate 5 turns, Change to Forest 10 turns
Forest: Change to Plains 5 turns
Hills: Irrigate 10 turns, Mine 10 tuns
Mountains: Mine 10 tuns
Tundra: Irrigate 10 turns
Glacier: Mine 15 tuns
Swamp: Change to Grassland 15 turns, Change to Forest 15 turns
Jungle: Change to Grassland 15 turns, Change to Forest 15 turns

Upgrading Irrigation to Framland requires the same amount of time as irrigation.

Transforming all terrain types requires 20 turns for engineers.
[This message has been edited by William Keenan (edited February 21, 2001).]

	15-02-2001 04:53									#19
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A new slowthinker's theft:

posted by
rah
King
Ferretown CST
b.02-15-99
to Civ2-Strategy: damn, deity is hard (Page 1)

	15-02-2001 04:55									#20
	Get a bigger avatar today!

rah,

quote: <font size=1>Originally posted by rah on 02-14-2001 01:48 PM</font> As long as the settler isn't first in the rotation for the turn. If you click on him as the turn starts, you will always be able to move him.

I didn't know you may "awake" the settler in the same turn. But you may "awake" the settler one turn in advance too (by clicking on him). But then, he don't get to the top.

I tried couple of tests:
1. Units don't rotate, they are arranged into a line. "Normally" you go through this line to one edge, you "rebound" back, you return to the second edge and so on.
2.If you end the turn, you start new turn with last active unit (I will call it A next) flashing, then you go to one edge (usually against the direction of last turn, but it is not a rule), then you jump back to A, skip it and go to the second edge. Then you continue "normally".
3.If you click a unit that is not active, then the process is ussually interrupted only: it continues normally after giving an order to the unit. But it is not a rule.
4.If you set an order to a settler then things may stop work "normally".

Sentences "But it is not a rule" mean I don't know how it works.
[This message has been edited by SlowThinker (edited February 14, 2001).]

	21-02-2001 10:38									#21
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Mr. Keenan: transformation actually takes 40 settler turns or 20 engineer turns, yes?

	21-02-2001 20:01									#22
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Only for Glaciers and Mountains AFAIK.
Otherwise it's half. Two Engineers can change grassland into hills in only 5 turns, very helpful in OCC games!

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If you have no feet, don't walk on fire

	15-03-2001 20:18									#26
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My settlers can irrigate and mine (which can sometimes transform the terrain, for example irrigating a forest means transforming it to plains).
They cannot transform (for example turn grassland to hill). Can yours do that, debeest?

BTW has anyone established a list summing up the results of transforming special squares (such as irrigating a pheasant and getting a buffalo)?

	16-03-2001 10:36									#28
	Remove this text

To determine what will result from your alteration of a special, simply peek at the terrain1.gif file. A special always remains in the same column, regardless of the terrain type. This is good to know if you have a particular special you wish to create.

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