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KaiserIsak
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of Isakistan Empire
Oct 2000
time: 05:12
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I just tried this strat. on a deity game, and i invented monarchy before i got a 5 city. Seems like the strat is too slow for me.
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Matthew
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Manhattan, Kansas . USA
Jan 1970
time: 05:12
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Dag nab, just saw this one. I kind of hope they fix the food box thing in Civ III. Seems to me that if there is less food than required people should start to die.
I did do something similar to this long ago in an MP 2x1x game when the barbs got my capital. I didn't even have Monarchy yet. The one resource I had was food. Virtually all shields and trade went to corruption. But food I had enough of. I hurriedly got 4 cities to size 5, and made 3 scientists in each. I got Monarchy and managed to stay in the game. Wish I would have known about the food box thing back then.
This is a great find, but it certainly is not omnipotent.
1. Shields are worth anywhere from 2 to 4 gold, depening on what they're used for. A size 5 city, which would produce 16 gold, could also be producing 7 shields, along with gold, science, and food for growth.
2. I imagine that this is most effective early on when rushing for some wonder, and the limiting factor is who gets the tech first. Otherwise the offset to growth is probably substantial.
3. Unless you must have a certain tech first, no tech is worth mone than about 30 shields.
4. I can make a caravan from a size 5 city in 7 turns. I can often get 300 gold and science from that caravan.
Having said that, I at least am comforted to feel that civ as I know it is not gone. just changed somewhat. I look foreward to implementing this little tactic in the future. Great job, Xin.
I still hope they fix the food box thing. And keep the Camel in civ III.
SAVE THE CAMEL !!!!!
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La Fayette
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albi, france
Oct 2000
time: 06:12
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Rasputin
Bribing back (1 dip and some gold needed, but a city that has been yours before is half price).
The loss of a city is painful mainly when it is feeding settlers or maintaining many improvements.
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La Fayette
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albi, france
Oct 2000
time: 06:12
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quote:
Originally posted by Xin Yu on 09-14-2000 01:47 PM
Some notes:
Just as 5 scientists can give you 16 science bulbs, 5 taxmen can give you 16 golds. The effect increases when you build city improvements. This is very useful when you are rushing for a wonder. You can have some cities build caravans, and others hire taxmen (stop scientific research for a while), and use tax money to rush buy caravans.
One food caravan can supply a city enough food for 5 turns. Using this, in later stage of the game, you can push the above strategy to its limit -- in a big city hire 16 scientists or taxmen (with corresponding city improvements), and use food caravans to keep them work there forever. Suppose you have a size 20 city and build marketplace, bank, and stock exchange. Hire 16 taxmen will give you 120 gold per turn (suppose the other 4 citizens can provide enough gold for the maintainance). Spend 125 gold every 5 turns for buying a food caravan, you net 95 gold per turn, enough to buy 30+ shield of production, only without any happiness and pollution problem.
The ultimate parctice is to use food caravans to increase SSC's population to 36, and hire 16 scientists, then use food caravans to support the food consumption.
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This is almost exactly the equivalent of the "Starving Silicon City" that I described a few weeks ago. I bow.
(the fun of it is that Xin Yu also chose a city size 20 to develop his example)
(for those interested, I mention a tiny mistake: "one food caravan can supply a city enough food for 5 turns". This is true only for a city producing no food at all by itself).
------------------
aux bords mystérieux du monde occidental
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La Fayette
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albi, france
Oct 2000
time: 06:12
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quote:
Originally posted by Xin Yu on 03-09-2001 12:43 PM
This has considered the food produced by the city itself. For example, a size 20 city consumpts 20*2=40 food each turn, or 200 food in 5 turns. A food caravan will fill half of the food box, or 21*5=105 food. The city itself must produce 95 food in 5 turns, or 19 food each turn to make up the difference -- needs 4 people working on farmland (plus the city square itself).
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I agree with your example and your calculations, which show that 1 caravan feeding 1 city in 5 turns is possible.
Still, this is not always true (in fact, the number of caravans required depend upon how much food the city itself produces). Example (city size 20, consuming 40 food/turn):
1) City produces 0 food = 1 caravan (105 food) needed every 105/40=2,625 turn.
2) City produces 10 food/turn = 1 caravan needed every 105/(40-10)=3,5 turn.
3) City produces 19 food/turn = 1 caravan needed every 105/(40-19)=5 turn.
4) City produces 30 food/turn = 1 caravan needed every 105/(40-30)10,5 turn 5) City produces 40 food/turn = no caravan needed (no deficit)
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Xin Yu
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Emeryville, CA, USA
Jan 1970
time: 21:12
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After writing several scenario strategies, suddenly I find that some elements of the size-5 strategy are very useful in playing scenarios. In a scenario, the player usually already has several cities, or can occupy several cities very quickly. This makes the size-5 strategy more attractive, for the following reasons:
Some scenarios require the player to research certain techs for better units. The faster the research, the better. Changing all citizens to scientists will boost the research and give the player access to better units, which in turn will let the player occupy enemy cities faster. Example: Imperial Rome, Red Front.
Some scenarios do not allow advanced government types. By changing some citizens to taxmen or scientists, the riot factor associated with number of cities will disappear, and the bribe/waste associated with early government type will diminish. Example: Mongols.
Hence, for a lot of scenarios, a great strategy applies:
1)at the beginning, hire all citizens as scientists (build food caravans or settlers to add to small cities and grow them to size 5 if necessary) and research a better weapon;
2)change scientists to taxmen after the new weapon tech is researched, meanwhile sell city improvements in cities to finance your production;
3)rush buy new weapons;
4)attack nearby cities using the new weapon;
5)Sell city improvements in newly occupied cities and hire its citizens as taxmen;
6)rush buy more new weapons;
7)go for wonder cities first to reduce cost and unhappiness.
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LeeT
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Toronto, Ontario, Canada
Feb 2001
time: 05:12
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I've been using the Size 5 city, and more generally the idea of city specialization in standard SP and MP games, and find them both effective and enjoyable, (as opposed to ICS which I always screw up and find annoying).
But I don't see the point in using it in scenarios. If I have to blow out city improvements to pay the bills, the scenario wasn't well made, and I won't finish it, and if I don't need to sell them off, I won't, even if I am paying upkeep on an Aqueduct in a size 1 city. MP, especially against friends, is all about squeaking out every last ounce of advantage you can, but scenarios have their own house rules I feel.
I'm currently finishing Harlan's Pacific War scenario, and I could have sold off endless improvements and bought freight to deliver, hired tons of scientists, and probably matched the allies one tech advance per turn. But if Harlan had meant for that to happen, he wouldn't have made the Japanese based on a Fundy government.
The whole point is to sweat as he gets ever closer to the atom bomb while you to finally get a Fighter strong enough to take down a SuperFortress Bomber. Or conquer India, buy up Libraries and Universities with the european imperialist gold you captured and triumphantly earn that one advance every three turns!
An MP game using a scenario... well that'd be a different story
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markusf
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I find this is one of the most useless strats... You lose production, and you actually lose trade. If you have trade routes in your cities (seems most people don't) the trade routes in your local city and destination cities will all decrease the loss here is more then any potential gain... Then you have the loss of shield production which can again be significant...
arii uses this strat against me all the time, and i can easilly beat him in any science race. expand expand expand. Science isn't that important...
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markusf
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duplicate
[This message has been edited by markusf (edited March 20, 2001).]
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arii
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St-Louis MO USA
Jan 1970
time: 05:12
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Lol Markusf.
I beat you using variants of this strategy just as much as you beat me. If I would use this strategy in its pure form I agree that the lost expantion and prodution would doom you. I typically do it for 1 maybe 2 cities at the max and only when I badly need science (ie stuck in desp when I have gotten a bunch of crap techs from the hutts).
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Xin Yu
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Emeryville, CA, USA
Jan 1970
time: 21:12
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Size 5 works better in 2x! The only difference is that you don't add two settlers to the city, you only add 1 (or even none if you don't want to).
Suppose you are in 2x production and you have a few grass with one food special (wheat, fish, musk). Nearby you have a few forest with one shield special (bull, coal). You build one on grass, using the food special, another on grass but near forest, using the shield special. You can quickly grow both cities to size 4 and add one settler from the forest city to the grass city. Then the food city will be able to live with only 1 worker since even on despotism the city will have 9 food, thus you only have 1 food shortage so your existing food can last very long.
Now your forest city will build a wonder and your grass city will do the research. If you can build a library in the grass city it alone will be able to give you 3-4 turns per tech before trade. The size 4 forest city will be able to build a wonder in 12 turns. Advanced tribes are not rare in multiplayers so you'll have a third city from a hut.
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markusf
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And you will be dead shortly after that.
unless your playing 5 billion small, any other setting using that strat and you would be destroyed on 2x. the focus on 2x is to get as many huts and horses as you can asap.
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05-10-2000 22:12
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