09-09-2000 05:28									#1
	The "Size-5" strategy Support Apolyton, buy Call to Power 2

Deity Level.

(a-c same as ICS)
a) Build two cities close to each other, on high food production squares.
b) Build a settler in city #1, and a warrior in city #2 for exploring (maybe 1 or 2 more for martial law).
c) Use the city #1 settler to build city #3.

d) Build warriors in city #1 for martial law.
e) meanwhile build a settler in city #2 and another in city #3.
f) as soon as city #1 grows to size 3, add the two settlers to city #1.

g) change all 5 citizens in city #1 to scientists until food is exhausted, then put 4 of the citizens back to work on grassland for one turn (to get at least 1 food reserve in food box). Change the 5th citizen to an entertainer if necessary. Then change them to scientists again.
h) city #1 start to build temple (if not available build barracks then switch to temple when the tech is available).

i) repeat this cycle: continue to build settlers in cities #2 and #3. Use the settler of city #2 to build city #4, then use the settlers of cities #3 and #4 to add to city #2 after it reaches size 3.

With this strategy you'll get Monarchy faster since each size 5 city will produce 18-20 science every two turns (16 when all 5 are scientists, 2-4 when put them back to work). That's 9 sciences per city per turn. Remember a size 2 city usually only has 1 science output per turn (unless on specials). Thus one size 5 city will be equivalent to 9 size 2 cities in science output!

You'll also be able to build wonders faster from size 5 cities, if you choose to do so. Hence it is quite possible that you build HG before your ICS player opponent, thus giving him a hard time.

	09-09-2000 05:45									#2
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This is quite brilliant.... how does it fare after Monarchy i wonder? Xin are you connecting the cities with roads before adding them to the city?

	09-09-2000 05:48									#3
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that reads impressive, though I don´t know if I understand it completely. maybe, if you´re online now,you can show me in a game.
settings (1xprod or 2xprod) don´t seem to matter, sice you´re dealing with scientists, right?

	09-09-2000 06:11									#4
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I agree that this sounds like very sound advice, but there's also a part of it that I don't understand, namely:

quote: Originally posted by Xin Yu on 09-08-2000 08:28 PM g) change all 5 citizens in city #1 to scientists until food is exhausted, then put 4 of the citizens back to work on grassland for one turn (to get at least 1 food reserve in food box). Change the 5th citizen to an entertainer if necessary. Then change them to scientists again.

It's the part about putting 4 of the scientists to work for one turn that escapes me. How do you mean to avoid the drop in population by making them work grassland for one single turn if the food storage is exhausted? Do you add another settler to the city after it drops to size 4, or did I miss something else?

Please elaborate Xin Yu, and thanks for the advice! I'm sure it'll be useful in most games if one is inclined to play this way. Me, I'm still mostly into OCC. But that might change and I'll remember this gem.

	09-09-2000 07:06									#5
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War4: road is not very important since scientists do not have waste/corruption. However I still prefer to build roads for faster unit movements.

Oedo: it works better for 1x production. You trade your productivity (e.g., 2 food, 1 shield, and 1 trade if worked on roaded grass) for a specialist, which gives 3 science bults or 3 golds. The benefit is that you have full control of the distribution rate (you can have in effect 100% tax or 100% science under any government form), and there's no corruption.
For 2x it is less favorable since your productivity is doubled (a grass gives 4 food, 2 shields, and 1 trade, a forest, gives 2 food and 4 shields) but a scientist still only has 3 science bulbs. I still do it in selected cities for faster wonder building.

Legman: If the food box has 1 food left but you have more than 1 food deficit, the city can still last for 1 turn. So you only need to put enough workers back for one turn in order to get 1 food in the food box. The next turn you can change all citizens back to scientists with a huge food deficit without any problem.

	09-09-2000 09:35									#6
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Xin:
I have been doing something very much like this in the current game I am playing. I modified the strategy a bit to account for the fact that good trade specials (gold, silk) around my size five city have greater productivity than the corresponding scientist would. The initial size five city happened to be my capital, so there is no corruption problem. In later years combine this with two or three domestic trade routes which feed into a Super Science City and you can really kick a**. This strategy works great. I hope to land on AC before 1000 AD. The only down side is that micromanaging is very time-consuming.

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[This message has been edited by Adam Smith (edited September 09, 2000).]

	09-09-2000 16:49									#7
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Yet another candidate for GLoA - great work Xin and thanks for sharing ...


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	09-09-2000 17:13									#8
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As usual Xin... another grand insight.
I'll have to try that in games where I can't find trade specials for my early cities.
But a question... By the time your cities get to size 5, shouldn't you already have been in Monarchy for a long time already

	09-09-2000 17:29									#9
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Is it just me who doesn't get it by now? Wouldn't changing 4 of the 5 scientists back to working food squares on alternate turns - once the food storage is exhausted - by and large remove the benefits of the strategy? Or is it that the brilliance of this scheme is totally above my head? Could be...

	09-09-2000 20:29									#10
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Not necessarily Legs... You should be able to generate more than just one extra food. Two or three food extra would be pretty standard. If the city has marginal trade while working the crops, you could even send it into disorder by working the fifth citizen instead of making him an Elvis. Food still accrues during disorder. Using the five sci method will also allow you to build on hills since you get two food, versus forest where you only get one...

Xin's similar use of scientists tip in the RedFront scenario convinces me that this is a very powerful tactic. Building on trade specials might even make it more so. Also, you can in an emergency keep those scientists thinking even if the city dips down to 4 or 3 or 2 or 1 citizen. Useful if you HAVE to get monotheism next turn or if you want to disband a captured city in a bad location.

	10-09-2000 09:26									#11
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Ming: in 1x production you don't get Monarchy that fast .
But you will be quite close to Monarchy by the time the first size 5 city is established. (If you played ICS, by that time you would have around 6-8 cities).
And that is one of the keys for the size-5 strategy to be successful: it works better in Monarchy than in Despotism. In Monarchy the city square (on grass) and any irrigated grassland squares produce 3 food, but in Despotism only 2.
Which means, in Despotism, putting 4 workers back to work is not enough to generate food surplus for a size 5 city unless you have a wheat. You need a temple and put all 5 back to work (on grassland only) for one turn before you can hire them as scientists again.
However in Monarchy you can save the temple. Or, if you build the temple and put all 5 back to work, you do not necessarily put all workers on grassland (especially if you irrigate one grassland square). You can take advantage of other squares' shield and trade arrow productivity.

Adam Smith: Yes, if you can put a worker on a special which gives more than 3 trade arrows, it is not wise to hire him as a scientist (unless you consider corruption effect ).

Legman: Let me give an analogy.

ICS is like a capitalist trying to expand by buying out other small businesses. He spends some money to buy a small business (building a settler), but never tries to expand it (never let the settler's city grow). Instead, he squeezes money from the small businesses in order to buy out more small businesses (let the settler's city build more settlers). As a result, his whole empire consists of a lot of small businesses.

Perfectionist is like a capitalist trying to expand by building a store chain. He starts a business, build it well, then use the surplus to build another, and build it well, then build the third, .... As a result, his whole empire consists of a handful of well maintained businesses.

Size-5 is in the middle of the two. Like ICS, you buy out small businesses, but instead of squeezing its money for buying other businesses, you use the exploited money to build up your original company. Then you buy more small businesses and squeeze money from them to build up your second company. As a result you'll have some well maintained businesses and some small businesses.

	09-09-2000 22:02									#12
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Thanks for further explaining this to me Sten and Xin Yu. And for the educational nature of it! I am now convinced that it's my own limited ability to envision how this would work in a game that's causing confusion.

I've never tried anything like this, but once I'm back from my vacation I'll try it out in a new game and see what happens. Right now, I've got other turkeys to shoot! Gotta love that phrase...

	09-09-2000 22:03									#13
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If I build on high food square,how am I gonna build a settler in my capitol first before size 2?I have no gold as I have no units out exploring getting gold.

What exactly is a high food square.

By the time I build all those settlers and warriors I would normally be in Monarchy and be close to finishing a wonder.What is the time table on this?

Is this for mp?What about barbs?How do hold my size fivers with warriors?

I'm a little unclear.


[This message has been edited by Smash (edited October 29, 2000).]

	09-09-2000 22:06									#14
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Thank you, Xin Yu. This is brilliant!

	09-09-2000 23:19									#15
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Oh never mind, I understand it now.
I was just really tired when I read that thread.
[This message has been edited by SilverDragon (edited September 11, 2000).]

	09-09-2000 23:21									#16
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DP
[This message has been edited by SilverDragon (edited September 11, 2000).]

	10-09-2000 01:24									#17
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SilverDragon - there may be better ways to express not understanding than copying an entire post. Perhaps you would do well to spend some time reading through the archives.


One additional point I forgot to add earlier is that this type of strategy works well with graneries/Pyramids. With a granery - when you grow from 4 to 5 you will have a half full food box, allowing you to keep 5 scientists for a long period of time. The usual disorder of a size 5 will be of no consequence since you will be hiring all scientists anyway. If the tech is available, I would build a granery rather than a temple for those cities. Defensively,I might build on hills or at least rivers to afford warriors a chance to survive early until you can get Phalanxes. One you have a few - vets preferably, you will be difficult to dislodge even without walls.

	10-09-2000 02:12									#18
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Silver Dragon - I'm not quite sure which part of the strategy you don't understand - but possibly you are perplexed by the concept of specialists?

In the simple form a specialist is an entertainer. When one of your cities falls into disorder you can take a worker off the map in the city window and make an "Elvis". This usually restores happiness to the place. This can be done if your city has a population of one. (It often has to be done if you are sleazing!)

However, when a city has 5 or more population, you not only have the option of making an entertainer, but also taxmen and scientists. (You first click a worker off the map and he becomes an "Elvis", click the "Elvis" he then turns into a taxman, click again and you get a scientist).

What Xin is saying is that you should rush the population of some cities to 5 (by allowing settlers to join a city - "b" key - population increased by 1) so you have the chance of making 5 specialist scientists. This increases the beaker output from the city from about 2 to 16 - I tried it earlier! Powerful stuff!
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SG (2)

	10-09-2000 03:16									#19
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Thanks SG(2), your response was more constructive than my "newby - read the old threads." My apologies SilverDragon.

	10-09-2000 07:28									#20
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Since I respect anything Xin says,
I played with this strategy a little.
Can be very effective in 1x1x. As long as you don't forget to switch back.
However, In 2x1x I can consisently get to Monarchy faster in a normal fashion. But the concept of alternating early still has some merit in 2x1x, just not quite as much.
I didn't realize that as long as you had 1 food even with that big of a deficit it didn't subtract.
Again I tip my hat to Xin Yu

RAH

	10-09-2000 09:57									#21
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Smash: in my strategy city #1 builds a settler, 3 warriors, and a temple before go to size 5. That's 110 shields. In ICS you build one settler, one warrior (total=50 shields) then start building a wonder. So I don't think you will be close to finishing a wonder when my first city reaches size 5.

I agree that balancing food and shield is a tough task. You can either build a warrior in city #2 and move it to #1 for martial law, or you can consider build a warrior in #1 first before building the wonder.

Rah: thanks for trying. You can turn on the flag for 'food deficit cause famine' warning so that you don't forget to swich .

In 2x1x I recommend that you build size 5 cities for wonder building. It will be twice as fast as small cities .

	10-09-2000 09:59									#22
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It's become clear to me that a number of you here have no life beyond CIV II.

Xin, do you have anything else istalled on your PC besides Windows and CIV II?

	10-09-2000 10:06									#23
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Xin, you should think about writting a book. I know of at least ten people here who would buy copies. Xin's Master Guide to CIV II (10,000 pages).

	10-09-2000 10:13									#24
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A few more reasons why this is an incredibly effective strategy:

1. You are no longer constrained by the 50, 60, 70, or 80 percent science limits in place prior to having democracy. This is what makes this a very powerful early game strategy. Alternatively, imagine having fundy without the 50 percent science limit.

2. Once you get a number of cities to size 3, you can use Mike's plus a "we love" day to get the remaining cities to size 5 in a hurry. (You will generally need one trade route per city to do this.)

3. Have each size 5 city set up three domestic trade routes to your super science city. With a size 15-20 SSC each route will pay about four trade per turn continuing bonus, for a total of 12 trade per city. Since the continuing trade bonus effectively depends on the sum of trade generated in the origin and destination cities, once your SSC gets up to 15 or 20, the size 5 city contributes essentially nothing to the total. Therefore, you keep the 12 trade per city bonus even when the entire population of the size 5 city is off researching science.

4. Add libraries to your size 5 cites for even more fun.

5. But the most amazing thing is what this strategy does for your total population. Cities cannot be built adjacent to each other, so in a completely packed ICS pattern cites can only be size 3 at most. eg:
12121212121212
c3c3c3c3c3c3c3
12121212121212
C3C3C3C3C3C3C3
12121212121212
c3c3c3c3c3c3c3
etc
where c and C are cities.
ICS cities will usually only be size 2, so you are wasting 25% of the available squares.
Now consider a size 5 strategy. On the first turn the c cities use their entire population to research, while the C cities replenish their food supply using temporarily unoccupied squares normally worked by the c cities. On the next turn they reverse. By doing this you can support a population that is almost twice the number of available squares!

Now for the down side:
1. No matter how careful you are you will, I repeat WILL, screw up and forget to turn some of the cities back to food production, thereby losing a population point.
2. The micromanagement associated with using this strategy for more than just a very short period of time has driven me absolutely mad MAD MAD I TELL YOU BWAHAHAHAHAHA......

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[This message has been edited by Adam Smith (edited September 10, 2000).]

	10-09-2000 11:01									#25
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Another thing that I've just learnt, is that you can eliminate a "red face"! If one of your 5 citizens is unhappy, the discontent disappears when all the population are scientists.

Like Adam, I find the micromanagement drives you crazy! But I think it helps to work the cities in pairs, one on science, one off. I'm now looking at how effective the food caravan trick will be between the pairings. City A always supplies to B and B to A.

--------------
SG (2)

	10-09-2000 11:55									#26
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My usual line of play is either 1 or 2 warriors in capitol start wonder.Thats 10 or 20 sheilds.Hopefully have hit some huts previously or soon after.Usually before.That city is good till size 4.Just before size 4 I return a unit or give 10-20% lux.

City 2 builds 1 warrior then 2 or 3 settlers.Then either a phalanx or wonder if units from huts have been found and returned.

If I find gold before capitol then 1 settler is rushed as much as techs allow while settler2 explores or roads.Then build.

It all depends on terrain and early huts as which way to go in my mind.

	10-09-2000 12:33									#27
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thanks xin, I got off to a bad start in a game tonight, 2x1x, but i had four cities doing the dance. (bought libraries for fun) I was getting techs every two turns. Hello Democracy. In 2x1x you have wait a little longer to set it up, but it works like a charm.
Very entertainning stratagy.
Yes I left the warning on, and it helped. But if you drink while you play or whatever, it is a risk. I'd didn't forget tonight, but I came close.

Rah
The Ferrets hoist a drink to Xin Yu

	11-09-2000 18:02									#28
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After experimenting with it, all I can say is...

GREAT JOB AGAIN!

Rah used it in well and made a great come back in the science race. I didn't have many 5 plus cities at the time, but I used it quite effectively too.

I won't feel so bad the next time I play and I get stuck building the pyramids

	11-09-2000 20:46									#29
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once again, I fall victim to Civ I vs Civ II. I used a similar strategy in Civ I to get my capital to size 5 (usually to help rushbuild pyramids), but in Civ I IIRC, if the food storage dropped to empty from non-empty there was famine reguardless of whether there was a food surplus or not the next turn... Might have to explore that food deficit strategy a little more in OCC as opposed to maintaining WLTKD (now if i can find the time to start #17 )

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	11-09-2000 20:46									#30
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Thanks everybody for your support.

Now please answer this poll: size-5 vs ICS, who will be ahead?