06-09-2001 05:49									#1
	The Chinese Special Unit: Why A Mounted Unit for China? A possible answer... Got spare money?

The question has been raised: "Why a mounted unit for China? Clearly the knights of Europe best depict such a unit."

In my rather brief but interesting research, I have come to the following conclusion: Firaxis chose a mounted unit for China primarily to represent China's invention of the stirrup and the use of heavy armor and weapons it made possible. If Lynn White, in his Medieval Technology and Social Change, is to be believed, the feudal class of the European Middle Ages derived ultimately from the stirrup.

Thus, we can say, the mounted knights in Europe and all the substantial military and social effects they would have in the Middle Ages owe themselves to stirrup-mounted units first used in ancient China.

So while we might not associate China FIRST with the image of the mounted warrior, it would seem that historically speaking, Firaxis' choice is a solid ...if perhaps 'overly historic'... decision. Personally, I rather like having the unit placed in such an historical context, though others might well be forever smitten with the image of a mounted European.

Some more backgrond quoted from various sources:

quote: The stirrup arrived in Europe during the 3rd and 4th century, by way of India, where it was used since the 1st century AD. The earliest known use of the stirrup was in China, several centuries before it showed up in India...these older techniques, combined with the stirrup, made the mounted warrior quite secure in the saddle, especially if carrying a big load of armor and weapons.

quote: The stirrup has been claimed to be of enormous consequence in the history of warfare and, indeed, in social and institutional history. Lynn White, in his very provocative treatment of the stirrup, says its introduction marked the third significant phase in the use of the horse in battle, the first two phases being the chariot and the mounted rider. The stirrup was important because it provided the rider with a secure seat and enabled the horseman to become a better archer and swordsman; more importantly, it made possible the effective use of the lance in the charge. No longer was the rider in danger of being lifted from his horse on impact. The stirrup, therefore, "made possible mounted shock combat, a revolutionary way of doing battle."

quote: One of the new developments of this time was the widespread use of horse armor, or bardings...The conjunction of stirrups and bardings is probably not fortuitous, and it may well have been the increasing use of armored cavalry that provided the incentive and favorable environment for the development and widespread use of the stirrup.

quote: The emergence of the armored cavalryman had an important impact on the nature of warfare in China. The first effect was to give the nomad horseman a new importance, and the nomad dominance of North China in these years is perhaps to be attributed to the nomad's skill in using this new military weapon.

Finally, a very interesting question is posted and perhaps answered here.

quote: Why, if the stirrup brought feudalism to Europe, did the same thing not happen in China? Joseph Needham, in considering this problem, has recourse to the "astonishing stability" of Chinese civilization, which is "so deeply civilian in its ethics that the very conception of aristocratic chivalry was perhaps impossible." The answer, rather, is to be found in the developments described above. In China the bureaucratic apparatus existed to administer the resources of the state down to a relatively low level.'"" There was little need to "broker" central power on a regional basis in order to acquire the needed resources. "Local troops" were a kind of brokered product--rank was given in exchange for the service of these personal followers, but only at the local level. The recruitment of Chinese into the centralized army gave the Northern Zhou and its successors, the Sui and the Tang, the military advantage over their rivals. The advanced bureaucratic techniques of the Chinese state enabled this recruitment to remain under centralized control--there was no need for power to be brokered by middlemen as was the case in Europe...The stirrup and the heavy armor that it made possible, therefore, seem to have had very different consequences from those which emerged in Europe.

I hope this was helpful.

	06-09-2001 07:23									#2
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One problem with this: the stirrup most likely originated with the steppe nomads to the north and west of China, not in China proper. For instance, here's www.britannica.com's take on this:

"Stirrups probably originated in the Asian steppes about the 2nd century BC. They enormously increased the military value of the horse."

www.encyclopedia.com says of the stirrup:

"probably they had their origin in central Asia"

The peoples of the steppes of Central Asia were the first to domesticate the horse, first to ride horses (by at least 1000 years before anyone else), first to shoot arrows from the back of a horse, etc, so its hardly surprising if they were the first the develop the stirrup (though its hard to really know since they weren't exactly keeping records on the steppes back then).

If you take the Chinese civilization as encompassing groups like the Hsiung-nu, Oighurs, and the Mongols, then they deserve the Rider unit. If you take a more restrictive unit and think the Mongols should have had their own civilization, then they don't. Needless to say, I take the later view.

	06-09-2001 07:28									#3
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Yes, that is an interesting point. I agree that Firaxis' choice needs more explanation from Firaxis itself.

	06-09-2001 07:39									#4
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The Firaxis site says:

quote: China leads the world in terms of horse population, having nearly 11 million horses within its borders. Once the discovery of the stirrup made its way to China, heavy cavalry soon followed. As the Chinese found out first-hand when the Mongols invaded in the 12th century, it is better to have heavy calvary than to be attacked by them.

1) "Leads the world in terms of horse population." Interesting but hardly a reason to give the Rider unit itself. The United States leads the world in Bald Eagle population, too...why not make the U.S. special unit an angry bird of prey?

2) "Once the discovery of the stirrup made its way to China..." Hmm, I don't understand that statement. India did NOT discover the stirrup, so what does this mean? That it came from the Mongols, as Harlan argues? If so, why give China the Rider?

3) "...heavy cavalry soon followed." O.K. This seems to be a good point. We can say that the Mongols had the stirrup earlier, but the Chinese put it to a more modern (heavy) use.

BUT

4) "As the Chinese found out first-hand when the Mongols invaded in the 12th century, it is better to have heavy calvary than to be attacked by them." Again, this seems to suggest that the Mongols really had it on the Chinese first.

CONCLUSION: Firaxis' reasonings here are weak at best. I have tried to give a plausible reason myself, but even I am wavering on that now. Questionable call, I'd say.

	06-09-2001 07:39									#5
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By the way,
The reason many people think the Chinese invented the stirrup is that that's the first place it shows up in written records. So unfortunately that belief persists sometimes. Once these perceptions become widely established, they're very hard to change. For instance, the notion that the compass, gunpowder, printing press, etc were invented in the West and not in China is still all too widespread, cos that's where they first entered into Western civilization's records.

White had some good ideas, but the one you quote was not one of them. His stirrup theory is generally considered debunked by most scholars these days. A review of the controversy can be found here: http://scholar.chem.nyu.edu/~tekpag...s/strpcont.html

	06-09-2001 07:41									#6
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Printing press was invented in Korea...but I have a whole thread on that topic! LOL! Anyway, people think it was invented in China for the same reasons as the stirrup perhaps.

	06-09-2001 07:46									#7
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China leading the world in horse population today is laughably irrelevant to whether they deserve a special horse unit from hundreds of years ago. The reason China has so many horses now is because A) today China largely controls the regions held by their northern barbarian neighbors for most of history, like Inner Mongolia, Manchuria and Takla Makan and Dzungaria, and B) China is a huge country with a huge population of many things. If all of Europe were one country, they might have the most horses in the world probably.

The fact that they had to grope for this weak stat shows how little justification there is for the unit. The fact that they could come up with no better name than "Rider" is another.

And sorry yes, printing press is from Korea. Sloppy generalizing on my part.

	06-09-2001 07:49									#8
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Yes, without further justification, putting that one in there seems to undermine the case more than help it. As a final tack-on statement after making a solid case, it would make an interesting point, but to have it as an opening line is unfortunate.

	06-09-2001 08:16									#9
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Nope, printing press was not from Korea. However, the first movable metal type press was.

Now back to the topic. In the murky recesses of my brain I vaguely remembered something about the collar harness. A short search on the Web reveals the following (attributed to Joseph Needham):

quote: The Horse Collar: China. Third Century BC. About the fourth century BC the Chinese devised a harness with a breast strap known as the trace harness, modified approximately one hundred later into the collar harness. Unlike the throat-and-girth harness used in the West, which choked a horse and reduced its efficiency (it took two horses to haul a half a ton), the collar harness allowed a single horse to haul a ton and a half. The trace harness arrived in Europe in the sixth century and made its way across Europe by the eighth century.

	06-09-2001 08:31									#10
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It's possible that China was awarded a special mounted unit simply because there was nothing better to give them. They have no military unit that the masses can immediately identify with them. The Japanese have their Samurai, and the Greeks their Hoplite, but the chinese have nothing so tightly attached to them, at least in the eyes of those who haven't studied Chinese history to a great extent. It's possible that, although they may be rather loose and flimsy, the historical references that Firaxis makes regarding early mongol invasions and the large populations of horses do make the rider about the best choice possible for a Chinese UU.

	06-09-2001 08:58									#11
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quote: Nope, printing press was not from Korea. However, the first movable metal type press was.

Off-topic response: The controversy about the first printing press stems from the discovery of the oldest wood-block printed document ever found, located in Korea in 1966 as the result of an accident repairing a pagoda. The top cracked off and inside was found the Darani Sutra...the oldest printed document found to date. Click the quote below to see one source:

quote: The oldest known woodblock printing in the world is Darani Sutra found insde Seokga Pagoda of Bulguksa Temple in 1966. Because the pagoda was built in 751 A.D., the sutra must have been printed before 751 A.D. This sutra predated japanese Million Pagoda Darani Sutra dated to 770 A.D.

Now, the Chinese and even Japanese have come up with all kinds of odd theories on how that document actually came from their country, etc., but even a number of Chinese scholars attests that the particular stroke style was in vogue in Korea at that time and not China or Japan.

Of course, a new discovery could turn all this up-side down, but this is where things stand. Ain't history fun.

	06-09-2001 10:03									#12
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Yin26,

My sources indicate that woodblock printing in China was invented during the Sui dynasty (581-618CE).

	06-09-2001 10:06									#13
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quote: Originally posted by Harlan White had some good ideas, but the one you quote was not one of them. His stirrup theory is generally considered debunked by most scholars these days. A review of the controversy can be found here: http://scholar.chem.nyu.edu/~tekpag...s/strpcont.html

The link provide mainly deals with the question of whether the stirrup led to feudalism. It does not debunk the concept that the stirrup marked the third significant phase in the use of horses in warfare, the first two being chariot and mounted rider.

As for whether a Chinese person invented the stirrup, or whether it came from some obscure nomadic tribe, is this really important? There is general agreement that the Chinese were the first "civ" to use the stirrup. That would give their calvalry an edge over other mounted troops.

	06-09-2001 12:37									#14
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Tingkai,
Read the whole webpage. The thesis is: "At present it seems clear that stirrups did not cause the invention of feudalism, and, in fact, they seem to be a convenience and not a necessity for mounted shock warfare." That's not to say they were merely ornamental, but that they were one part of a puzzle, other pieces being the high pommel and cantle, training, and larger breeds of horses. There is another page on the debate at: http://www.fordham.edu/halsall/med/sloan.html

To me it is important who discovered (and widely used) the stirrup first, because it is yet one more indication to me that the Chinese never had a superior cavalry compared to those of their immediate neighbors. I think those neighbors were different enough and significant enough in history to deserve their own civ, and the poll on civs show them as one of the most missed civs in the game. What you're saying is like saying "what does it matter who invented mobilized tank warfare first, the French or Germans? They were both in Europe so its close enough for horseshoes. Let the Panzer unit be the French unit."

And Monkspider, I agree that a problem is that an obvious Chinese unit doesn't leap forward in many people's minds, but that's no excuse to make the Rider unit. The Crossbowman has been the Chinese unique unit in other games, like AOE. And it would suit Firaxis' gameplay purposes perfectly, since the crossbow was more of a defensive unit than offensive, and great at defending cities and at sieges. The Rider, though designed as a defensive unit, could be extremely useful for the offense, since it moves so fast. Timewise it could also fit what they've got already, as a Pikeman-plus.

	06-09-2001 14:51									#15
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quote: Originally posted by Harlan Tingkai, Read the whole webpage. The thesis is: "At present it seems clear that stirrups did not cause the invention of feudalism, and, in fact, they seem to be a convenience and not a necessity for mounted shock warfare." That's not to say they were merely ornamental, but that they were one part of a puzzle, other pieces being the high pommel and cantle, training, and larger breeds of horses. There is another page on the debate at: http://www.fordham.edu/halsall/med/sloan.html To me it is important who discovered (and widely used) the stirrup first, because it is yet one more indication to me that the Chinese never had a superior cavalry compared to those of their immediate neighbors. I think those neighbors were different enough and significant enough in history to deserve their own civ, and the poll on civs show them as one of the most missed civs in the game. What you're saying is like saying "what does it matter who invented mobilized tank warfare first, the French or Germans? They were both in Europe so its close enough for horseshoes. Let the Panzer unit be the French unit."

Egads, you're right. I was thinking about the wrong article, namely the link you mentioned that contained the statement "There is no question that the introduction of stirrups improved the effectiveness of cavalry."

My mistake.

Interesting analogy about tanks. The British were the first to use tanks in warfare, but it was the Germans who were the first to use tanks as a truely effective modern weapon.

If we worry only about who invented something, then the panzer should not be the unique unit for the Germans.

Even if the Chinese did not invent the stirrup, that doesn't mean they did not have superior calvalry.

On a related note, you mentioned high pommel and cantle. I seem to recall hearing that the Mongels mounted archers relied more on the high pommel and cantle for stability than the stirrup. Don't know if this is true, any comments?

	07-09-2001 05:19									#16
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Even if the Mongols invented the Stirrup, they won't show up in Civ3, which means China is the next in line.

Firaxis made couple of mistakes in the decription of China's unique unit:
1. Mongols were not the first one to use heavy cavalry against China. Their ancestors, the Huns, had massed heavy cavalry well before 200BC. The wars conducted by Emperor Wu of Han were mainly fought with heavy cavalry, and that happened at least 100BC, 1300 years earlier than 12th century.

2. Mongol cavalry can't possibly be more heavier than the plate-armored Western knights. What set Mongols apart from the rest of world was their tactics, mobility, discipline, and rider's skill. Also, horse archers were the main strengh of the Mongol cavalry. How could an archer work well in heavy armor?

	07-09-2001 07:27									#17
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Tingkai,
I agree that who invented something is not necessarily that important (though sometimes it can be, esp. if no one else picks up on it for a long time). The whole stirrup question is kind of a wild goose chase to begin with, as I've been trying to say that it was somewhat important, but not a huge quantum leap in horse warfare effectiveness as its sometimes made out to be.

I don't know the relative importance of high pommel and cantle vs. stirrup, but many areas in the West were ravaged by horse riding peoples before they were using the stirrup.

Transcend, the Mongols did have some heavier cavalry, but you're right, generally speaking mobility was key. Their horses were also much smaller than the ones used by European knights. The huge European horses used up a lot of resources getting around, making their range of use more limited. The Mongols also didn't need thick armor because of their use of silk clothing, which typically doesn't puncture when hit by an arrow. So even though the arrow cuts into you and makes you bleed, the arrowhead is still surrounded by the silk, and you can easily pull it out and almost always have no infection. Pretty clever, eh?

But don't think the Mongols as starting with Genghis Khan. That was when they burst out into the world in popular form, but in a looser way (language families and cultural groupings), pretty much all the nomads north of China can be categorized as either Turk or Mongol (or a mix), so they go back to the Hsiung-nu times and before. Kind of like the Arabs, with people tending to think that they didn't exist before 600 AD, when in fact they go back a long ways.
s

	07-09-2001 08:18									#18
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I never knew that about the silk. Interesting stuff. Have you seen this link:
http://www.silk-road.com/artl/stirrup.shtml

Don't get thrown off by the reference to White at the beginning. The interesting stuff is the archeological evidence for the initial use of stirrups by the Chinese. The author dates it at about 300 AD. Don't know how much truth is in the article, but it sounds fairly accurate.

The author also mentions an interesting theory about who would have invented the stirrup.

"As early as 1926 A. von Le Coo pointed out that, on the basis of conjecture, it is as reasonable to say that the stirrup was the invention either of a mounted people who sought with it to make riding less tiring, or of a people unused to riding who sought thereby to obtain quickly the skills necessary to meet the needs of cavalry warfare."

	07-09-2001 08:20									#19
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Excuse me did I miss something? It seems to me that Firaxis started with the Chinese Golden age, which they apparently determined (not unreasonably) was the Ming dynasty. But the Ming is parallel in time to the high middle ages in Europe, the time of the dominance of armored knights (yeah i know the overlap isnt perfect, as the zenith of the Ming took place after Crecy) . SO they decided they had to give China a superior knight, so that the timing of the golden age would work.

This would be equivalent to what they did with Egypt (though more extreme) - there being no evidence that Egyptian chariots were any better than anyone else's at the time, but the point was to give Egypt its golden age in late Bronze (which made sense)

Thats what they do - they first decide WHEN the golden age should be, then back into the appropriate special unit. Which makes sense, since the special units arent (presumably) as important a feature as the golden ages.

Only contrary evidence I can think of is the Zulus. (who are problematic anyway) Any others?

LOTM

	07-09-2001 08:36									#20
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This link, again from the Silk Road Foundation, dates invention of stirrup to 900BC. Again, I can't vouch for the accuracy.

http://www.silk-road.com/artl/chrono.shtml

	07-09-2001 08:58									#21
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quote: Originally posted by Harlan The whole stirrup question is kind of a wild goose chase to begin with, as I've been trying to say that it was somewhat important, but not a huge quantum leap in horse warfare effectiveness as its sometimes made out to be. I don't know the relative importance of high pommel and cantle vs. stirrup, but many areas in the West were ravaged by horse riding peoples before they were using the stirrup.

Just because areas in the west were ravaged by horsemen who did not have stirrup does not undermine the importance of the stirrup.

It was a significant technological change simply because it provides the rider with a more secure seat. Riders armed with a sword have much better control with a stirrup than those who do not. The same applies to archers.

What has been disputed by historians is the importance of the stirrup with regards to the use of the lance and the rise of heavy armoured knights. In that case the stirrup becomes part of a larger package. Speaking of which, the armoured knights did not apparently require large horses from what I have read.

I think Harlan's information about silk and arrows shows the mistake of assuming that since the European knights were clad in metal armour, that therefore they were individually a better unit.

If the Chinese were clad in silk, their riders would have been less heavy allowing the horses to run further. The silk provided better protection against arrows. So providing the Rider unit with better movement and better defence than the knight would seem appropriate.

	07-09-2001 09:24									#22
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quote: Originally posted by Harlan But don't think the Mongols as starting with Genghis Khan. That was when they burst out into the world in popular form, but in a looser way (language families and cultural groupings), pretty much all the nomads north of China can be categorized as either Turk or Mongol (or a mix), so they go back to the Hsiung-nu times and before.

It depends on who you believe. China's northern border had always been plagued by nomadic tribes. It's very hard to trace back in history using language families or cultural groupings as most these people had no written form of language.

Chinese history had Huns and some other nomadic tribes in the region before the Mongols. As a matter of fact somewhere around Genghis Khan's time there were four major groups in that area.

	07-09-2001 09:46									#23
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Whoa there, which would you rather wear if an arrow was coming at you, Silk or Metal? In the earlier statement about silk armor, silk did not prevent penetration, just infection and tearing of vital parts. That would compare nicely to chain mail, although chain mail is heavier and it stops hand weapons better. Silk was very useful no doubt, but to say that it stops an arrow better than plate mail doesn't make much sense to me.

	08-09-2001 13:37									#24
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It seems that some of the civilizations "encapsulate" other cultures historically from the same region, even at different times. For example:

Babylonians: Encapsulates Assyrians, Akkadians, and maybe Sumerians. At least it seemed that way in Civ2 based on the city names, except Sumer wasn't in there by default. Of course, Sumerians were almost "predescessors" (despite being non-Semetic) to Babylonins & Assyrians as they dominated Mesopotamia almost two millenia before Assyrians, Babylonians, and Akkadians showed up.

English: Really refers to the British, including Scots, Welsh and Irish.

Chinese: It seems obvious that this has elements of the other tribes like Monguls, Avars, Huns, etc. Especially if the Chinese often used the nomadic horsemen as mercenaries on long-term uses.

Greeks: Seems to include Macedonia and the empire carved by Alexander the great. Why do you think he's the leader?

Historically, this is largey inaccurate on the whole (except for about the Greeks, the 3 kingdoms of Alexander's empire were still Greek ), but in Civ3 (and Civ1 & Civ2) you are rewriting history, often on a randomly generated world, so who knows how things really turn out.

The way I see it, there are only two kinds of UU I can imagine for the Chinese:

a. A mounted unit (like the Rider)

b. A crossbowman (wielding a Cho Ku Nu)

One last thing: I think the name "Rider" does sound more like an "oriental" description (over cavalry or horseman). Don't ask me why though.........