06-09-2001 07:01									#1
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The drones are unstoppable. There is nothing outside the aliens that can touch them. They can out tech anyone(yes that's right.), out build anyone and out grow anyone. The ways are not to difficult either, think of this-

Drones decide to out tech the university. Switch to demo/FM/wealth, netting more industry +2 econ and some efficiancy. Then use the +3 industry to build lab structures out the wazoo. Result- even the -2 research can't slow them down.

Again, drones decide to out produce anyone. Switch to demo/planned/wealth. This nets +4 industry, +4 growth and some economy. Result- any and all SPs will be the drones. Add Eudomonic and the result is disasterous.

And lastly, the conquering man. Use none/planned/power. Even with power you still have +1 industry, not bad eh? Then produce your elite troops faster than anyone but Yang and kill. Add Cloning Vats.

	06-09-2001 14:45									#2
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How about the "Drone rioting bases join Free Drones"-effect? Fortunately it doesn't happen so often, but anyway
Also the Cyborgs are a bit overpowered.

But why is it that I always get my behind quarters kicked when playing the Drones?

	06-09-2001 16:07									#3
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The problem with the Drones is the early game. No research for 10 years means you're seriously behind - and you'd better not be on an island, or you're in serious mire....

Mid-game - yep, the Drones pretty much rule. Not sure they can out-tech anyone - a good UoP/Morgan/PK player could out-tech a good Drone player, IMO. Still, their industrial power coupled with an ability to run FM and planned means they're well set.

	06-09-2001 18:31									#4
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Actually Island isn't that bad for Drones, the number one priority Tech for Drones should be Centauri Ecology. With that tech you get formers and the chance to build WP. Too small of an island? Build a bigger one!

,,,,,,,,,

If you don't have the right techs the drone could be hard to play. Try out tech anyone without the Ind Auto or survive an invasion from Spartans, Hive or Belivers without either Impact Weapon or Plasma armour, not possible!

	06-09-2001 18:58									#5
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I disagree, the aliens cant touch the Drones. Neither alien faction has a econ, industry or research bonus. The only thing really going for the aliens is the free rec tanks and starting former, which gives them an explosive start. The combat bonus is easily nullified by the big 'X' target painted on all progies.

Agreed that the Drones rock... they get their pick of one of the early SP's, thanks to the improved industry. Suprised you didn't mention the ability to run FM and not have drone problems, thats a serious benefit.

Altough, I think in some sense any faction played to it's strengths is 'overpowered'. The drones really suffer from -2 research in the early game... when the uni and morgan have crawlers out in force 30 years before the drones, and are bagging crucial SP's before the drones are anywhere near them...

Basically, keeping tech out of the drones grubby little hands is a good strategy, because lagging tech is the drones only weakness. But not a weakness to underestimate, when you consider how much Crawlers and Clean increases ramp up for the techy factions. (sure, eventually the drones will get the crawlers, but it's still 20-30 years of enhanced rampup the uni has on them) If however in the early game the drones find a friendly Morgan gullible enough to trade IndAuto (or a defenseless morgan ripe for the plundering ) they become a true force to be reckoned with.

Overall I consider the Hive the more robust faction, in terms of being able to conquer and build with equal ease, at the same time. You have to love a faction which can go conquer an annoying neighbour without missing a beat building-wise.

	06-09-2001 19:52									#6
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Blake,

I think you've pretty much hit the nail on the head. The drones do rock, but only in quite specialised circumstances. The builders have a 20 year start, effectively, techwise, and depending on the Drones' proximity to friendly factions, the growth in tech advantage will be exponential.

Of course - running FM without drone problems is a big advantage, though for me, the ICS nature of the drones somewhat nullifies this. On a standard map, the bureaucracy warning comes at 6 bases - by the time FM is a viable option, you typically have 10 bases (and are still expanding at a rate of knots) so it is simply impractical.

Put simply, if you can get tech, you're always going to be a step ahead of the opposition, SP-wise as well as infrastructurally. Not only that, but your economy is typically booming by that stage as well, especially if you can nab the VW for a seamless switch to FM.

Yep - the Hive is indeed a more robust an well-rounded faction. However, the Drones are better at both - industrial capacity and economically they are better, as well as being able to match them tech-wise (mid game at least). So for sheer power, the Drones win the day, IMO.

	07-09-2001 01:30									#7
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I agree with most that the Drones are powerful. Their industry bonus makes them a very fun faction to play. By the early part of the mid-game, the disadvantage of their research penalty has all but evaporated. Still, I'd stop short of calling them unstoppable (that, I believe would be the Borg, and even they aren't invincible).

The Drones' slow start makes the early game precarious. Short of discovering data pods or making some very lucky trades, they are a long way off from much-needed techs. At first all their much-admired industry will build is synthmetal troops and CP's. And without formers starting out, the quick industry won't help bases grow to size 2 to get the CP's moving. So their filling a continent isn't much faster than a lot of other factions.

I agree with knowhow2 that an island is a decent starting place for the Drones. Keeps away from too many technologically-superior hostiles until you're ready to deal with them. There's nothing more frustrating than waiting and waiting for the tech to build a probe team to steal some tech to achieve offensive parity with those invading Spartans. And true: without deviating from your tech beeline to crawlers, you can raise a narrow bridge to sneak a scout across to meet neighbors for trades.

	07-09-2001 02:27									#8
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Drones are also my pick.

One is however very dependent on findig some trading partners for tech or you may never catch up. Besides this - in my opinion - a lot of the hype on the drones come from that they are simply easier to play succesfully for a less skilled player.

The margin is not that much though and I would still bet on the better player (as long as he does not play Hive - the most handicapped of all).

Generally on factions - I find it does not matter that much. The real handicapped factions are the ones that are hard to pop boom - that includes Morgan (no planned), Hive (no demo), Cyborgs (-1 growth), Pirates and one of the aliens. You just cannot grow fast enough to keep up with players who use this.

Additionally those that cannot go +2 energy early are handicapped. That includes Gaia (no FM), Hive (-2 econ), Cult and maybe some others I forgot.

Personally I would much rather play believers than Morgan, though Morgan is one of the easiest to pop boom through golden age. Definitely believers over Cyborgs.

If you are up against good players that know how to juggle the various pluses and minuses, you will get serious competition from a good Pk or uni player.

All that said I still find the drones combination of less riots and cheap production costs the most powerful. It is simply easier to get big and rich. The others take more careful planning and watching.

Cyborgs are great if you get the vats. If not you will be left behind. Basically all growth handicapped factions win or loose with the vats.

For the factions that cannot go +2 energy all one can do is get big and then conquer.

If the others are not wiped or significantly smaller before end game sets in you just dont have a chance to keep up with their research.

All that being said one just needs to play the chance one has - for Hive that means hyper-aggressive early on. Morgan and cyborgs go for the vats. The less limited factions have more options and with Drones you can do just about whatever and will probably do Ok anyway - but winning against a skilled opponent will be no pushover, matter what you play.

	07-09-2001 02:51									#9
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Too much emphasis is often put on +2 econ, IMO, for the simple reason that in the mid-game, +2 econ makes little or no difference.

Early on, in MP anyway, you don't get too many wars. Players are eminently peaceful, which means tech gets traded. Now, this is the main weapon for anyone lagging behind in tech early on - typically the Gaians, the Drones and any momentum-based faction. A wise trader can make up several techs with cunning trading stategies....and even get to a key tech before the major opposition. In several Drone games I've had, I've been tech leader after the initial round of trades, especially if I got the EG.

In the mid-game, FM ceases to be a viable option. The advent of MMI really signifies thi - as this is when the chopper era begins, and if you don't have a horde of choppers of your own, you're toast. So, with FM out of the window, the emphasis changes. All of a sudden, the Gaians are the best researchers in the game, with all that efficiency - the ease with which they pop boom means they have grown more vertically than any other faction. The University come second, if they have boomed to a decent size - and if they've managed to pull a boom off at all, Morgan is right in the picture, running Demo/Green/Wealth. +2 econ and +4 efficiency....very useful indeed.

So, by the mid-game, it's only Morgan really that benefits from +2 econ. In any case, the advent of energy parks means that worked energy plays second fiddle to crawlered energy. The Drones are as good as anyone at this, with their production advantages. Once again, the +2 econ plays second fiddle, and all of a sudden, we have a level playing field again.

So....what does this mean for the Drones? Very early on, they need to trade for tech. If they can't do this they're toast - and if they're on an island, the process is made that much slower. Later on in the early game, they need to switch to FM, and begin to rake in the cash. As a by-product, the tech will come - in essence, this means they can keep up until the mid-game.

Which is when their efficiency begins to kick in. At this point, a switch to green would be desirable - but the Drones can't run green. As a consequence, you have to switch to planned....which is when the troublesome nature of trying to run a large empire with 0 efficiency kicks in. The Drones are behind other factions technologically - though their production nullifies this. How much does production tilt the balance? Hard to say. If you're looking at conquering, you've not got a problem - even a well-defended neighbour is going to have trouble countering a Drone military operation. Then again, superior tech may make this a breeze....depends on the situation I guess. Still, one thing is for certain - the drone menace can be countered. They rely on sheer numbers - if you can keep one step ahead of them, you won't hav a problem.

	07-09-2001 04:24									#10
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Blake- as I stated before, I think only the aliens are more powerful, but not much. They are not ment for players to use anyway, however.

My post was kind of sloppy, as I was trying to finish in 1 min with my mom yelling at me to go to bed...

The way the drones play is this.. they are real low on the power graph for about say 100 years. Then they just take off. Easily #1 in 20 years. The combination of FM+high industry will simply crush anything. You have good tech, good money(to take from those with better techs), and good production. Again, the industry bonus will help in all areas. You can build lab structures and energy structures faster than anyone. So what if zak has free nodes? you can build 3 lab structures by the time he builds 1.

The ability to have money(unlike the Hive) is also powerful. Enemey have something you like? steal it!

I am changing my quote to "I follow the path of Adam Smith(the SMAC player, not the economist)"

	07-09-2001 05:47									#11
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quote: Originally posted by Qualicide Blake- as I stated before, I think only the aliens are more powerful, but not much. They are not ment for players to use anyway, however.

I was saying the aliens are not stronger - their advantages are temporary at best. Free rec tanks *shrug*, morgan can buy rec tanks for pretty much all his bases, zak gets to crawlers faster.

quote: The way the drones play is this.. they are real low on the power graph for about say 100 years. Then they just take off. Easily #1 in 20 years. The combination of FM+high industry will simply crush anything. You have good tech, good money(to take from those with better techs), and good production. Again, the industry bonus will help in all areas. You can build lab structures and energy structures faster than anyone. So what if zak has free nodes? you can build 3 lab structures by the time he builds 1.

I disagree none, once you have crawlers (and probably restriction lifting) the world is the Drones oyster, most importantly prehaps +2 industry allows MUCH cheaper rushbuys, making cash go that much further. But getting to that stage is difficult to guarantee.

quote: The ability to have money(unlike the Hive) is also powerful. Enemey have something you like? steal it!

I have come to the conclusion I am a much better at playing the Hive than most people. Just as I see the odd brave soul willing to build as Miriam, I build as the Hive. The Hive has an industry bonus and a growth bonus, combined with support (and planned!) this means they can fill their continent much quicker than any other faction. It also means colony pods are dirt cheap, drone control is dirt cheap. Very early a base can be pod-boomed to size 4 and have 3 scouts for drone control, this base builds the WP. A base with nut resources can be pod-boomed to size 5, have 2-3 libarians and 3 scout patrols for drone control. This base produces a fair chunk of tech - not as much as the free marketeers but enough to not get left behind. Formers are built in force, very early, 2 or 3 per base, and the territory is turned into a mass of condensors and boreholes (via the WP). This terraforming results in an enourmous industrial output, and a fair cash output too - enough for emeregency rush buys and plenty for unit upgrades (just not enough to mind control everything in sight...), with specialists the Hive can compete in the tech race. +2 econ? Bah, give me a base full of specialists anyday, these specialists are supported by large numbers of condensors - the crawlers are nice but optional. I say compete, the Hive can never excel at researching - but can make up for marginally lower tech with much great numbers of military units and probes.

The best thing is this enourmous output can be turned effortlessly into hoardes of units, and as much empire as desired can be switched over to military (hard for a marketeer to do). If another player decides it wants to harrass you the Hive can devote half a dozen lesser bases to cranking out rovers, infantry or probes - because hive doesn't have drone worries it can afford to lose 6 small bases to military production. When it comes time for large scale military forces the entire empire can begin production of noodles or choppers

Finally - the hive is hardly the sort of faction which players pick fights with - the free perimeter defenses make impact rovers ineffective, the cheap colony pods means losing a base is hardly a loss at all. The drones are horribly vunerable to getting crushed when all they have is Synth armour - there is something demoralising about being able to only build laser-synth infrantry while enemy impact rovers take base after base. This is what I mean when I say the hive is robust, it is virtually guarenteed to atleast get somewhere, it is hard for another faction to strike a crushing blow against the hive, it is difficult to catch the Hive with their collective pants down. I love this security in a faction.

	07-09-2001 16:52									#12
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quote: Originally posted by kassiopeia How about the "Drone rioting bases join Free Drones"-effect? Fortunately it doesn't happen so often, but anyway

I've never seen this happen, although I've read about it. Does it only happen at certain levels or something, or is there another trigger factor?

	07-09-2001 18:20									#13
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quote: Originally posted by Tizzy I've never seen this happen, although I've read about it. Does it only happen at certain levels or something, or is there another trigger factor?

I've seen this happen when the AI is the Drones and I am not. Never the other way around. I have lost a small base or two to the Drones, but have never noticed a message come up that "Rioting Drones in Assassin's Redoubt have joined the Free Drones." This despite using many probe teams to induce drone riots in enemy bases and join my Drone submissive.

So it goes.

	07-09-2001 22:10									#14
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About the thing Bases Revolting joining Free Drones, that happens but bases in revolt doesn't just join the Free Drones not even when they're in the game!

It saids in the manual that bases revolting has a 75 % chance to join the Free Drones but that I hardly think is accurate. It seems more like joining the closest faction not necerssary the Free Drones.

,,,,,,,,,,,

When it comes to MP games I don't think any faction would enjoy starting a small island. Everybody needs tech trade otherwise why would UoP ever care to trade at all at the early stages. They're almost always the tech leader the first 10-20 years.

	07-09-2001 23:40									#15
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Playing the Drones in a MP game, I received a base from a human faction that had rioted.

	07-09-2001 23:53									#16
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DP

Last edited by SITS on 08-09-2001 at 15:30

	08-09-2001 03:35									#17
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I play with blind research which increases the strength of the alien factions as they have directed research. I belive the game was meant to be played with blind research in single player games. As i never lose to the AI when i use directed research and why else give the aliens the ability for direct research.

If you have never played this way in single player i urge you to try it and if you like it select all four tech catagories to research from. Plus you have to trade techs more, for some reason some factions wont research certain techs. Oh and blind research sucks in multiplayer games takes less skill and more luck to win.

	08-09-2001 13:28									#18
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It's true that the Free Drones will always be behind on tech for much of the 2100s. But that's not necessarily fatal, even in a war. If they take the initiative and attack more than they defend, they can easily swamp their enemies, even with inferior weapons. Remember that the attacker's weapon rating is compared to the defender's armor rating. Even if Domai's enemies have Resonance Lasers and his men only have normal Lasers, it doesn't matter as long as they don't have a chance to use them.

The Democracy/Free Market/Knowledge combination is especially powerful when used by the Drones. This gets their Research back to neutral, their Efficiency to +3, their Economy to +2, while their Industry remains +2. With careful preparations (Hologram Theatres, Virtual World, Tree Farms), they can out-research most factions, build large armies fast, and still run up a nice budget surplus.

The first thirty years or so are even more difficult for the Drones than for other factions. But if they get past this, few will be able to compete with them.

	08-09-2001 16:08									#19
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Personally, I never find the Drones that difficult an opponent, even when played by a fairly competent human. I nearly always play as Consciousness, and as long as you can get the techs faster than the Drones (which one nearly always can), you can build so many more SPs that poor Domai tends to simply get submerged under all the special effects that all your SPs give you.