27-03-2001 14:30									#1
	OCC: Is it time to give up? Increase Your PM Length

My latest game (Deity/7/raging, normal size world, ToT).

Starting techs: Alphabet, Code of Law, Ceremonial Burial, Masonry
Starting position: the center of a 4-trade-special grid -- two whales, two silk (technically, 1 silk, 1 wheat); all other squares are grass, plains, forest, hill, or water

I get to found my city in 4000 BC; I get to research monarchy as my first tech. I find and take control of the choke point between my city and the Persians, the only other civ on the land mass. I bang out three good caravans right away (Trade is my 4th tech, and the Persians demand everything I produce).

I follow the Paulicy to the letter, with one exception: since I have the caravans to do so, I build Hoover instead of a power plant (I find pollution management at the end of the game to be a real pain).

The only enemy I make is the Persians, who eventually dissolve our alliance. But they can't get past the choke point, and can't coordinate a naval invasion. I am never successfully attacked.

I neither give nor trade any tech more advanced than gunpowder. Nobody ever steals a tech from me, including the SS techs.

Punch line: The Germans beat me to AC by 4 years; had they been stopped (and I built the Manhattan Project after I launched in the hope that someone would sack Berlin), the Greeks would have beaten me by 2.

That's it. I give up. Now where did my daughter put that Sims CD?

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Dig trenches, with our men being killed off like flies? There isn't time to dig trenches. We'll have to buy them ready made. Here, run out and get some trenches.
-- Rufus T. Firefly, the original rush-builder
[This message has been edited by Rufus T. Firefly (edited March 27, 2001).]

	27-03-2001 16:55									#2
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As I used to say when my wife thrashed me at bridge (again!)

"Stupid bloody game, anyway".

By the by are you sure you followed the Paulicy to the letter? Never giving away tech sounds like a departure from Holy Writ to me?

	27-03-2001 17:24									#4
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You stopped far too soon with giving away tech.
I tend to keep giving tech right up to Spaceflight, but if you want to play it safe, you can surely go as far as Steel/Refining.

Did you adjust your beaker production to the minimum necessary each time you were about to discover a new tech? Did you rush-build? Got any gifts from your allies? Revolt in the right years?

Btw this sounds like a good map for a new challenge. Did you save the starting position? Can it be loaded by Civ II?


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If you have no feet, don't walk on fire

	27-03-2001 17:28									#5
	Increase the size of your Attachments

Rufus, I think that if you stop trading/giving techs at gunpowder that is far too early. IIRC Paul tells us not to give away combustion as it's a prerequisitive to flight which cancels the Colossus. I have tried to follow that rule and it has worked for me. Besides, around combustion/flight your sciense rate should be so high (one tech per two turns) that trading techs with AI isn't so profitable anymore.

This is my experience but I'm sure more experienced OCC gurus here can give you more profound hints!

Finally, don't give up on OCC! It's a fun way to play Civ2, IMHO. One day you will surely win the challenge!

	27-03-2001 17:31									#6
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LOL, Ribannah and I was writing replies at the same time and she got hers ready first! (she being one of the OCC guru I was referring to)

[This message has been edited by Marko Polo (edited March 27, 2001).]

	28-03-2001 09:45									#7
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Round Two
Bolstered by the kind words of fellow Apoloytons, I begin again. This time I vow not to be so stingy with techs. Everything proceeds as above and...it's working! I'm getting techs faster than ever before! Here, take gunpowder! Take industrialization! Radio? Sure! Space flight? Why not! I'm going to AC, and none of you are even building space ships! Bwaaa-ha-ha-ha-ha!

Punch line: "Space ships? We don't need no stinking space ships! We're your allies, the Persians, and we're dissolving the alliance and sneak attacking with bombers, tanks, and cruisers galore, none of which we would have had at this point is you hadn't been giddily giving away those techs."

La balance continues to elude me. Maybe I can find a nice shareware game of Tetris somewhere...

Aside to Ribannah: The game in question is Tot; I don't think it will load in any other civ version.

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Dig trenches, with our men being killed off like flies? There isn't time to dig trenches. We'll have to buy them ready made. Here, run out and get some trenches.
-- Rufus T. Firefly, the original rush-builder

	28-03-2001 10:08									#8
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Rufus, your experience closely matches mine (although I did manage to win the four whales game -- how could I lose with four whales?!). For several games, I felt like everything was going swell, and then -- bam! Suddenly the delinquent AI is magically getting a tech per turn, stealing space flight from me, and building five or ten structurals per turn. I desperately launch, and a few years later they launch a spaceship the size of Jupiter and beat me there.

But this week I finally won a game (the last of the pre-fortnightly bunch, I think -- I'm way behind). And like you, I gave up no techs past gunpowder. No furriners came sniffing around my city until late in the game when the Mongols sent a few dozen sacrificial diplomats into the forests between us. No nasty cruisers or bombers or spies. And the Mongols stacked up a big pile of structurals and some components, but never even launched. You can do it, big fella!

I think the main reason why the experts tell you to give away so much tech is in order to speed up the whole game so you can land sooner. If your goal right now, like mine, is just to eke out a victory, I think you should only be giving away tech to avoid wars and win allies who will give you cash.

	28-03-2001 16:38									#9
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I've only ever (wimpishly) tried an OCC on 2.42. But I've just bought a ToT - which appeared in the UK recently at £5 - mysteriously on prominent display and not in the bargain bin. (It seemed to be selling well so there are more folk out there than just us Apolytoners still playing this game).

Anyway, when I get around to installing the thing I'll try one on ToT and, from what I have read, I confidently expect to have exactly the problems you graphically describe.

If Ribs has played on ToT she can maybe give us some tips. But I kind of think that if the city location doesn't give you some help (I've played one or two where the A1 stayed pretty remote or I had a great choke point) the aggressive, well armed A1 poses a big problem for anyone.

I shall stick to giving lots away though, when I try on ToT. Speed is desirable as furnishing part of the solution to defence as well as for the satisfaction it brings. I generally give four techs or so to everyone each time they are willing to talk to me (about every third turn). I read a thread recently where Ribs gave something like 27 in one turn to a single A1 civ. Haven't tried that. I prefer to try to give stuff to everyone at about the same time and at a steadyish pace trying to maximise the improvement to my international relations.

Another tip is to get rid of your cash before you embark on a round of diplomacy.

	29-03-2001 18:50									#11
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Rufus T, I've just read Solo's fast landing thread.

Man, is there a MP facility on that Sims CD? I'm thinking I should maybe join you!

Alternatively, perhaps its time to look out my old Duck Soup video once again and see if Groucho and Co can revive my ancient tissues yet one more time.